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Which one is it?

  • Re-Find

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • Bark&Hold at the Victim

    Votes: 3 50.0%

  • Total voters
    6
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Discussion Starter #1
I'm working on Nalas indication and it's actually coming along very well. If it wasn't for the Federation I think I'd actually go with the hold&bark at the subject just to see the differences within the training and the dogs themselves.

I was wondering if any of you does the hold&bark at the victim and how many do the re-find.

Whenever I'm talking to some German SAR People that do the hold&bark at the victim I literally have to justify myself every single time. Since it's a federation rule we don't have a choice.

Just wondering why there is such a rift between hold&bar at the victim and actual re-find...seems kind of dumb when you think about it. Both are proofed methods and both have their pro's and con's but why do you have to justify if you do one or the other?

RH Sport Participants are welcomed to answer as well :)
 

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I work a cadaver dog but our team does the refind.
 

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In the team I was on, only the Disaster/FEMA dogs did bark at the victim. All other dogs did refind. Except trailing...obviously :)
 

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Oh - I think the answer will be colored by the type of searching you do.

No refinds on a rubble pile. Period.
Pros and cons of each in a wilderness setting and that can be influenced by terrain.
If it is a federation rule for you it is kind of a moot point.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Oh - I think the answer will be colored by the type of searching you do.

No refinds on a rubble pile. Period.
Pros and cons of each in a wilderness setting and that can be influenced by terrain.
If it is a federation rule for you it is kind of a moot point.

I've seriously came across people that would demand to see the re-find on a rubble if that is the trained response.
 

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I would not touch anything other than a smal structural collapse with anything but a dog trained primarily as a disaster dog -- I think you would just do that with a wilderness dog if it was small and there was a chance someone was alive....AND you were not taking too many of your own risks....(which will limit what you put the dog on)...I would say leave the big stuff to those trained for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I would not touch anything other than a smal structural collapse with anything but a dog trained primarily as a disaster dog -- I think you would just do that with a wilderness dog if it was small and there was a chance someone was alive....AND you were not taking too many of your own risks....(which will limit what you put the dog on)...I would say leave the big stuff to those trained for it.
Oh, you are right about that. I won't touch that kind of stuff. There are others, more qualified people out there for that. :)
 

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My Karo (IRO RH) performs a bark at the victim and will NOT leave the victim. A while back a friend hid for him and I was unaware of the fact that she went to the top of a two and a half story high pile of trees and brush. Karo climbed as far as he could,then burrowed through and popped up next to her barking. They definitely teach the dog to stay with the victim over there. :)
Personally, I do not do refind. I am not losing sight of my dog period so it is not necessary.
 

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If your victim is on a ridge and the dog catches scent from a half mile away (yes, we have had that happen) and takes off for the victim what do you do? You can't keep up at that distance-and the bell dies out and you can't hear that either. Then if they are on the ridge how do you know where they are since the sound can get wonky in the mountains?

I think both are valid widely accepted trained types of indications and one may be situationally better than the other and you should use what would be the best choice for your set of conditions.
 

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If your victim is on a ridge and the dog catches scent from a half mile away (yes, we have had that happen) and takes off for the victim what do you do? You can't keep up at that distance-and the bell dies out and you can't hear that either. Then if they are on the ridge how do you know where they are since the sound can get wonky in the mountains?

I think both are valid widely accepted trained types of indications and one may be situationally better than the other and you should use what would be the best choice for your set of conditions.

what is your point? my dog has obedience. my dogs do not "just take off" my dogs are never out of my sight nor earshot.. I do not allow it. Not in this part of the country. Same in the disaster scenario. I search hurricane debris. It is dangerous. I have directionals on my dog and solid obedience. If I see him getting toward a part of the debris that is unstable,I stop him. All of these dogs must have rock solid offleash obedience. A refind is no substitute for control:) To each his own with regard to the refind. I just do not care for it personally:)
 

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Not trying to argue - not sure how using a recall/refind is related a lack of control and how it has anything to do with directability. It is widely used. for wilderness teams. If the dog is not out of sight, even when it workds towards its target odor, I can see how the B&H would work.

The NY Fed SAR requires recall/refind as do many teams
 

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Not trying to argue - not sure how using a recall/refind is related a lack of control and how it has anything to do with directability. It is widely used. for wilderness teams. If the dog is not out of sight, even when it workds towards its target odor, I can see how the B&H would work.

The NY Fed SAR requires recall/refind as do many teams
I was just addressing your scenario about the ridge. It implied use of a refind because the dog was out of sight/earshot which is not something I allow. I am aware of its use by civilians. I am simply playing Devil's advocate. I have been handling police service dogs for a long time and an area search is something we do. I do not allow a patrol dog out of my sight. Too much liability because some dork can walk into one's search area and get taken down. I am not ever comfortable with allowing a dog to just take off out of my sight and out of my earshot. The indigineous wildlife here will attack a dog. My dog can find nobody if he is injured and I simply see no reason to allow that to happen. A refind is implying that one's dog is allowed at such a distance that the dog must come back and get the handler. I do not think this is prudent. JMHO
 

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I was just addressing your scenario about the ridge. It implied use of a refind because the dog was out of sight/earshot which is not something I allow. I am aware of its use by civilians. I am simply playing Devil's advocate. I have been handling police service dogs for a long time and an area search is something we do. I do not allow a patrol dog out of my sight. Too much liability because some dork can walk into one's search area and get taken down. I am not ever comfortable with allowing a dog to just take off out of my sight and out of my earshot. The indigineous wildlife here will attack a dog. My dog can find nobody if he is injured and I simply see no reason to allow that to happen. A refind is implying that one's dog is allowed at such a distance that the dog must come back and get the handler. I do not think this is prudent. JMHO
Wow, that is so different from here! My dog was fully expected to work out of sight. That is why we used the refind. He was an Wilderness Area Search dog that was trained on live, deceased and articles. However, my team does not allow dogs on the team that may take down a person - there are rarely shepherds of any kind and they are not allowed to be trained in bitework (obviously outside of SAR) in any capacity. The distance that my dog ranged was how I divided my sector. My Level III test was on 100 acres. I had a time limit and it was the middle of winter. If he hadn't ranged out of sight, we would not have made it. In the summer, the vegetation is so thick, it is impossible for him to range at all if he's not out of sight. I understand and respect your points, but that is not how the teams here in MI train it. I trained with more than one before I stuck with the team I deployed with and they all train refinds and out of sight searches.
 

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and respect your points, but that is not how the teams here in MI train it. I trained with more than one before I stuck with the team I deployed with and they all train refinds and out of sight searches.
I fully understand. My SAR dog is not a patrol dog. I was just explaining my position on 25 years of never allowing a dog out of my sight.
As far as the terrain. I have searched the Big Thicket here. I spent a great deal of time searching that area after the space shuttle columbia went down. They call it the Big Thicket for a reason. It is awful. I can still keep my dog at a reasonable distance so I can control him. We have wild hogs here and they are nothing nice. I just will not allow my dog to range that far. Everyone must do what they are comfortable doing and this is just my opinion :)
 

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I fully understand. My SAR dog is not a patrol dog. I was just explaining my position on 25 years of never allowing a dog out of my sight.
As far as the terrain. I have searched the Big Thicket here. I spent a great deal of time searching that area after the space shuttle columbia went down. They call it the Big Thicket for a reason. It is awful. I can still keep my dog at a reasonable distance so I can control him. We have wild hogs here and they are nothing nice. I just will not allow my dog to range that far. Everyone must do what they are comfortable doing and this is just my opinion :)
I suppose that the wildlife would make a huge difference! The only things we have around here are Coyotes and the occasional bear...very occasional - nothing really that you need to worry about. I was always more uptight worrying about loose dogs. LOL

ETA: Our dogs had to have good obedience as well and I *could* keep Mason within a specified distance with body language and voice very easily. I did this when we were by houses or on the fringes of property etc. So, I suppose the basic training was similar in that the training is intense and the obedience should be snappy but we just looked for overall different things.
 

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It does give a perspective that I had not considered - you can see why B&H could be problematic with a dog working out of sight. I can see how it would be better for a dog within range.

So with a dog working in sight range and, say 80-160 acres to cover. what do you do if the dog does hit odor from a long distance such as half a mile? Do you keep pulling the dog back, do you put it on lead, since it will want to go to source. I know your terrain is different but those distances are plausible here with the mountains. (work the drainages and valleys at night and the ridges during the day ......)
 

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I saw a ridge once........LOL Anyway. I work my dogs offleash. I train with a command " too far" They stop,wait for me and we move on. I do this in initial training. It does not take long for them to understand an acceptable distance and they will literally stop,look at me, wait for the dumb two legged human to catch up, then they start working again. It becomes just a matter of fact with them to work at a certain distance. If that makes any sense. :)
 

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I know our team teaches refind and were not to happy with me coming from a German team because they do hold & bark. I personally like the refind because to me it seems at that point they really understand the work they are doing or the "game" they are playing. If I were a victim, and a 100 lb GSD (like my Titan) came up to me and just sat there barking.. I might actually run from him or be scared out of my mind. Which is one reason our group does the refind. A friend's group does a hold & bark and it works just as well.

That all being said I am beginner at all this (about 10 months experience total). So that is more of an opinion and an observation. I can see though where one would be preferred over the other in certain situations.
 

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They understand the game they are playing by the reward system:)
If the victim is scared,they are found and scared :)
As I have said, to each his own. I am not going to allow my dog out of my sight. I have run into too many situations in the woods to put my dog into a bad situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yeah, I hear you Renee, we put a lot of time and money into our dogs. The out of side searching does give me a goosebumps too. My dog ranges very far. So far that she has to travel three or four times between the helper and I. Don't like it...
 
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