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How do you know? I do know if I get in this associate's program, it will be two years. Okay, then I get licensed or certified. Then I get a job, and a house and some land in a desired state or area.

My question is, how do you know when you are ready to get your first breeding quality dog? Would it be wise to get a foundation female before getting a house and land, like while I'm living in a temporary apartment or rental?

If I have to wait til I get a house and some land, instead of 2 years I'm looking at 3-4 years. :( I'm just wondering do I have to wait that long.

Just in case I get asked, I want to breed for a lot of reasons. What powers my passion is love of dogs, the desire to better dogs in general, and my love of the breed or breeds I will breed.

I still want to breed siberians, but I might end up changing my mind in these few years. I don't know, but the desire to breed siberians is still there.
 

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Wait as long as you can. Learn as much as you can in the meantime.
Keeping dogs on rental properties is no easy task. Especially if you want to whelp a litter. I know someone that whelped a working litter in his apartment. He said he will never be able to clean the poop off his walls, carpet and ceiling :sick: He's paying hundreds in damages and will have a hard time renting again.

Do not make any plans to breed before you are established with a job and home. Think about it this way. What if you find the perfect bitch, train her, show her and breed her...then what if you (hopefully not) get evicted, lose your job or have a financial emergency? It will be heartbreaking to make the choice to get rid of your dog.

Calm down, get your life sorted and established, learn learn learn in the meantime and take it slowly. Establish yourself and prove yourself to the breeding world by showing/training. Breeding will come if it needs to happen...
 

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Wait as long as you can. Learn as much as you can in the meantime.
Keeping dogs on rental properties is no easy task. Especially if you want to whelp a litter. I know someone that whelped a working litter in his apartment. He said he will never be able to clean the poop off his walls, carpet and ceiling :sick: He's paying hundreds in damages and will have a hard time renting again.

Do not make any plans to breed before you are established with a job and home. Think about it this way. What if you find the perfect bitch, train her, show her and breed her...then what if you (hopefully not) get evicted, lose your job or have a financial emergency? It will be heartbreaking to make the choice to get rid of your dog.

Calm down, get your life sorted and established, learn learn learn in the meantime and take it slowly. Establish yourself and prove yourself to the breeding world by showing/training. Breeding will come if it needs to happen...
I wasn't thinking of whelping a litter in an apartment, I was thinking that while I title her and get her hips and eyes certified, I would live in something temporary. Then when I was ready to breed her, I would have a house by then.

How can you train and show if you don't have a dog to do it with?
 

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Wasn't implying that you would birth a litter in an apartment. It's just an example of how people that aren't ready are breeding and facing the consequences. After you get to a place where you are settled, then go ahead and breed because right now, home/land is in the future and not a materialized reality.

How many dogs do you have now? Are you planning on breeding Huskies or GSDs? I'm confused on this one. What is the time frame if you plan on buying, showing and titling a female? What if she is a wash out? Will you keep her? How many can you realistically keep on a rental property?

From what I've seen, usually this is how it goes:
-breeder breeds litter
-pick pups are kept behind or sold to breeder's friends or people the breeder KNOWS will title/show and therefore keep the stock going. Breeder has no reason to sell show quality pups to companion homes. He doesn't want his best stock not out there "improving" the breed and this is understandable. If I bred, I want my pups to go to homes that develop their full potential.
-pick pups just hang out for awhile so the breeder can see how they develop
-pup is shown in local shows and breeder takes into account what the judges say. Pup gets a few VPs under his belt.
-pup continues to develop on the rag
-If at this point, pup doesn't develop well or doesn't have the drives for Schh, pup is rehomed as a companion dog.

Now if you're lucky, your female will have what it takes and you can continue showing/titling. But like I said, unless you have a good relationship with your breeder and you can vouch for your ambitions (showing/titling), the breeder will most likely not home a show/work quality dog to you. This is why most people's first dogs are just for practice. We show/train our first dogs knowing they will not be breeding dogs. But these dogs prove to the breeder, trainers and dog world that you can and will put in the effort to title/show a dog. Now Whiskey will never be a stud male. But he proves that I am willing to put in the effort and time into seriously showing/titling my dog. My breeders now consider me a "show home" and my next dog from them will be better for the conformation/IPO venues.

So rather than thinking about foundation bitches, just get a dog for you. Show it for fun, title it for fun and be in that world. Going into this world with the mindset that you want to breed isn't the right approach IMO. Go into it because you love dogs and want to work with them. Breeding will come if that is right for you.

The OTHER way you can do it is to purchase a titled, rated and breed-surveyed bitch from Germany. There are plenty of these you can find. Find a kennel that relates to your breeding philosophy, establish a relationship with them and purchase a V rated/KK1/IPO1 female. Added bonus if this female has already been bred once and you know she is a proven producer. Then from this female, you can keep your pick pups and develop those into a small breeding program. Keep in mind that the last female I saw flown in from Germany went for 35k so ask yourself if this is financially doable at this point in your life.

If I were you, I would do this: Get a solid pup from a reputable US breeder. Title/show/train that pup, but don't go into it thinking you will breed her because this is going to set you up for failure. Just enjoy her and LEARN as much as you can. Then once you have your own home, have a steady income and are established, purchase a foundation female if you want and start a breeding program. Know that you will not make any money and will lose a lot when you start so it's better if you are in a place in your life where you can shoulder these unexpected burdens. I am in no way trying to discourage you. Just telling you to not put the cart in front of the horse...
 

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I think getting a puppy sooner rather than later is better. That being said there is no guarantee that any dog you will get as a puppy will be breeding quality. But at least this way you will have experience training and raising a dog and if it turns out she is not breeding quality then oh well. At least you were able to focus on one dog and get some experience.

I agree no reason at this point to go out looking for a foundation female. Get some experience with the breed first.
 

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What you can do is get a nice male -- show it to its championship, get the health certifications. Learn what you can from the dog about the trials and tribulations of having majors break, having the dog not be a good as you had hoped, and how difficult it is to train a dog.

By then you will have graduated, found a house, etc. and will know more about your chosen breed, dog shows, and dog training. And you may have proven yourself suitable for a breeding quality bitch.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Wasn't implying that you would birth a litter in an apartment. It's just an example of how people that aren't ready are breeding and facing the consequences. After you get to a place where you are settled, then go ahead and breed because right now, home/land is in the future and not a materialized reality.
I agree.

How many dogs do you have now? Are you planning on breeding Huskies or GSDs? I'm confused on this one. What is the time frame if you plan on buying, showing and titling a female? What if she is a wash out? Will you keep her? How many can you realistically keep on a rental property?
I have zero dogs at the moment. My last dog was a siberian husky, who I rehomed after 2-3 months. I will not get a dog until I have a house or my own place to stay.

The breed I am focused on is siberians or siberian huskies. The time frame would be 2 years before I graduate, but now I am unsure after I graduate when is an ideal time frame to get a foundation female.

I have no idea how many dogs you can keep on a rental propery. As for if my first female is a wash out or doesn't fit my standard for what I am looking for . . . I never thought of that. I guess I would keep her as a pet and get another show quality female pup.

From what I've seen, usually this is how it goes:
-breeder breeds litter
-pick pups are kept behind or sold to breeder's friends or people the breeder KNOWS will title/show and therefore keep the stock going. Breeder has no reason to sell show quality pups to companion homes. He doesn't want his best stock not out there "improving" the breed and this is understandable. If I bred, I want my pups to go to homes that develop their full potential.
-pick pups just hang out for awhile so the breeder can see how they develop
-pup is shown in local shows and breeder takes into account what the judges say. Pup gets a few VPs under his belt.
-pup continues to develop on the rag
-If at this point, pup doesn't develop well or doesn't have the drives for Schh, pup is rehomed as a companion dog.
This sounds like a german shepherd breeding process. Siberians are a little different. You know a show quality puppy around 8 weeks, although it's a crap shoot. He or she may not develop or may not turn out.

It sounds like with German shepherds, you not only have to see if they fit the standard in structure, but you have to wait a while to see if their temperament is what you are looking for.


Now if you're lucky, your female will have what it takes and you can continue showing/titling. But like I said, unless you have a good relationship with your breeder and you can vouch for your ambitions (showing/titling), the breeder will most likely not home a show/work quality dog to you. This is why most people's first dogs are just for practice. We show/train our first dogs knowing they will not be breeding dogs. But these dogs prove to the breeder, trainers and dog world that you can and will put in the effort to title/show a dog. Now Whiskey will never be a stud male. But he proves that I am willing to put in the effort and time into seriously showing/titling my dog. My breeders now consider me a "show home" and my next dog from them will be better for the conformation/IPO venues.

So rather than thinking about foundation bitches, just get a dog for you. Show it for fun, title it for fun and be in that world. Going into this world with the mindset that you want to breed isn't the right approach IMO. Go into it because you love dogs and want to work with them. Breeding will come if that is right for you.
That's actually not a bad idea. So I get a show quality stud, finish his CH, and that would prove to breeders that I'm determined and have what it takes. Who knows, maybe he can be a stud, depending on how he turns out and his temperament. That's not a bad idea at all. I would get experience and by the time I get my foundation female, I would know the ropes.

Good.

The OTHER way you can do it is to purchase a titled, rated and breed-surveyed bitch from Germany. There are plenty of these you can find. Find a kennel that relates to your breeding philosophy, establish a relationship with them and purchase a V rated/KK1/IPO1 female. Added bonus if this female has already been bred once and you know she is a proven producer. Then from this female, you can keep your pick pups and develop those into a small breeding program. Keep in mind that the last female I saw flown in from Germany went for 35k so ask yourself if this is financially doable at this point in your life.

If I were you, I would do this: Get a solid pup from a reputable US breeder. Title/show/train that pup, but don't go into it thinking you will breed her because this is going to set you up for failure. Just enjoy her and LEARN as much as you can. Then once you have your own home, have a steady income and are established, purchase a foundation female if you want and start a breeding program. Know that you will not make any money and will lose a lot when you start so it's better if you are in a place in your life where you can shoulder these unexpected burdens. I am in no way trying to discourage you. Just telling you to not put the cart in front of the horse...
So what do you mean that going into it wanting to breed sets you up for failure? What do you mean "putting the cart in front of the horse"?
 

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My honest opinion regarding breeding of ANY dog or breed......
YOUR FOUNDATION STOCK IS VERY IMPORTANT.....don't skimp.
Your foundation (as with ALL foundations of anything) is the *base* of your future.
 

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how can someone other than yourself tell you if
you're ready to get a foundation dog? if you don't know
if you're ready for a foundation dog then you're
probably not ready. if i were going to breed i would
make sure i have the money to breed, the time and a
place to breed. i would also learn about the different
lines and have a purpose for putting 2 dogs together
to mate or than their GSD's.

My question is, how do you know when you are ready to get your first breeding quality dog?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
how can someone other than yourself tell you if
you're ready to get a foundation dog? if you don't know
if you're ready for a foundation dog then you're
probably not ready. if i were going to breed i would
make sure i have the money to breed, the time and a
place to breed. i would also learn about the different
lines and have a purpose for putting 2 dogs together
to mate or than their GSD's.
I'm not even talking about breeding german shepherds, also I never asked if I was ready for a foundation female now. I asked about in general and in the future.
 

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You do realize why we are all approaching your question from the standpoint of breeding GSDs....? Ask on a GSD forum...get GSD answers.
Perhaps a good Siberian Husky forum will be better able to help you... I know a couple of people on here have Huskies as well, but "Husky people" might know more.
 

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You do know that Sibes are demon dogs from Hades, right??? Absolute, unmitigated, relentless all out HECK. My heart & sould dog was a Sibe. As was Ruby Tuesday. I do love them. I may someday foster them. I'm not sure I'll ever choose to own one again. They escape, roam, prey, escape, disobey, escape, prey & ESCAPE some more. Even the experienced Husky breeders & rescues I talked to had escape problems. I had breeders swear their Sibes picked locks.

Ruby came to us b/c a Good Samaritan picked her up on I-80 West dodging traffic only to discover that every rescue she contacted refused to take her. All of 'em suggested she keep her. When she protested that keeping her was impossible they suggested she at least try. She was dumbfounded & read me the riot act on Husky rescue vs Irish Wolfhound rescue. I pointed out that EVERY IW had a suitable home waiting while the Sibe rescues were full up & overwhelmed...Complicated by the fact that most were re-homed due to escapist tendencies &/or extreme predation. New homes must be chosen with exquisite care or the re-homed dog will only fail again & again & again. All for being a Husky.

They're lovely dogs. Beautifully balanced, graceful, lithe, athletic, powerful, comely, uber smart, charming, cheerful, clever, resourceful & utter, absolute, unmitgated HECK.




(Heck lacks the appropriate ring but I otherwise I get asterics. Now I KNOW this site has children <presumably teens or older adolescents> but surely even they can handle *gasp* the raw, unadulterated form of h*e*c*k...)
Forgive my little rant...But Sheesh.Lord.A.Mercy.Almighty...Just seems stoopid
 

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I think you'll be ready when you go to as many dog shows (all varieties) watch and learn. When you find a breeder who is willing to mentor you. It's great to do all the book work, but getting out there and getting hands on experience as well as a really good mentor to guide you is the way to go.

I think you'll find even the seasoned breeders are always learning by experience as well.

Honestly, and I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you've only been to one gsd show, met a few dogs? The sibe you had only for a couple months so that's really your only experience with having a sibe? You need 'hands' on and find a mentor. Real life experience is more 'teaching' than reading about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think you'll be ready when you go to as many dog shows (all varieties) watch and learn. When you find a breeder who is willing to mentor you. It's great to do all the book work, but getting out there and getting hands on experience as well as a really good mentor to guide you is the way to go.

I think you'll find even the seasoned breeders are always learning by experience as well.

Honestly, and I don't mean to be harsh, but I think you've only been to one gsd show, met a few dogs? The sibe you had only for a couple months so that's really your only experience with having a sibe? You need 'hands' on and find a mentor. Real life experience is more 'teaching' than reading about it.
Well, it was an dog show. It was more than just GSDs there.

Yes, Lucy was my only experience with siberians. So yes, I do need more hands on experience, but I have a mentor. He's been my mentor for almost a year.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You do know that Sibes are demon dogs from Hades, right??? Absolute, unmitigated, relentless all out HECK. My heart & sould dog was a Sibe. As was Ruby Tuesday. I do love them. I may someday foster them. I'm not sure I'll ever choose to own one again. They escape, roam, prey, escape, disobey, escape, prey & ESCAPE some more. Even the experienced Husky breeders & rescues I talked to had escape problems. I had breeders swear their Sibes picked locks.

Ruby came to us b/c a Good Samaritan picked her up on I-80 West dodging traffic only to discover that every rescue she contacted refused to take her. All of 'em suggested she keep her. When she protested that keeping her was impossible they suggested she at least try. She was dumbfounded & read me the riot act on Husky rescue vs Irish Wolfhound rescue. I pointed out that EVERY IW had a suitable home waiting while the Sibe rescues were full up & overwhelmed...Complicated by the fact that most were re-homed due to escapist tendencies &/or extreme predation. New homes must be chosen with exquisite care or the re-homed dog will only fail again & again & again. All for being a Husky.

They're lovely dogs. Beautifully balanced, graceful, lithe, athletic, powerful, comely, uber smart, charming, cheerful, clever, resourceful & utter, absolute, unmitgated HECK.




(Heck lacks the appropriate ring but I otherwise I get asterics. Now I KNOW this site has children <presumably teens or older adolescents> but surely even they can handle *gasp* the raw, unadulterated form of h*e*c*k...)
Forgive my little rant...But Sheesh.Lord.A.Mercy.Almighty...Just seems stoopid
And some of that is people just don't know what they're getting into. All they see is looks, but they ignore the faults until they tear up a couch.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
You do realize why we are all approaching your question from the standpoint of breeding GSDs....? Ask on a GSD forum...get GSD answers.
Perhaps a good Siberian Husky forum will be better able to help you... I know a couple of people on here have Huskies as well, but "Husky people" might know more.
A lot of husky forums don't have many active users. It's hard to find a husky forum that's really active.

If I ever make another Siberian thread, then I will just post it in the Chat Room. :)
 

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you don't need to worry that your selected female is or has the foundation , YOU need to have the foundation and that comes through experience. You need to know the blueprint of what you are trying to build - that is the only way to know what foundation you have .

Realistically you may trial and error more than one female , more than one combination of lines. You need to know what it is that you want to produce , recognize when you are NEAR and when you HAVE it . See - that is why one female appointed with "foundation" or best in titles, wins , conformation , may not produce what you want .

It is not even the best of the best of the best that will produce . No room to go anywhere .

When you have a litter you have to evaluate the success and quality of the litter over all , which you can not do until they are adults. Breeding is a lot of waiting in the bushes and observing , keeping mental notes. Old time dog-man saying is "now that WAS a good dog" , you only really appreciate the specialness towards the end when you review the progeny .

You move your agenda forward through the progeny that approximate and exceed your expectations.

You don't throw the baby out with the bath water .
You have to be very honest with yourself , critical , knowing how things have to be fine tuned , eliminated, brought back to preserve.

Then , the other half of the equation is following and understanding the males that you are using .
Since breeding involves repetitive use of family lines , as line or familial breeding then you need to thoroughly know the power of these genetics , good and bad , know when a combination is beneficial or trouble ahead.
Two good dogs , lines, could be great - but with other combinations, not thrown together .

Many breeders don't build on anything . Each breeding is a brand new experiment , single generation only.

What do Siberian breeders attempt to produce ? Is it a look , colour pattern, show structure ?
What is it that you want to do ?

Carmen
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I think you need to avoid looking at the surface and quit digging in a hole that only goes so far.
Finding out when you are ready for a foundation female is just the tip of othe iceberg if that. You need to learn more about what you want to produce, why you want to produce it, how you intend to produce it. Research similar breeding programs make note of what you like and don't like in theirs. How you plan to continue that or improve upon. Find a mentor who can answer all of these questions for you. Get multiple mentors, just one is likely to have many biases and try and steer you in their direction entirely. If their direction is not one you want to go entirely then learn how to stand on your own and use the good advice and hold onto the advice you may need for later.

A mentor is not just someone who tells you what to do when your female goes into labor or whether the conformation of your dog is adequate, a mentor is someone who can tell you blood lines, who can share insight into individual dogs, who themselves have found success in a similar manner to which you want to continue.

You should be less concerned about when you can do all of these things. That should be the least of your worries. If all you are concerned about is when you can breed and raise that first litter then you are in this for the wrong reasons. You shouldn't be in breeding just to breed.
Breeding is about wanting to improve the breed. It should have a goal and purpose. That purpose should be actively worked for. The breeders I choose to respect are the ones who breed for themselves. To keep one of their own to train and title and show themselves. The ones who have a goal and because that goal is set and believed in 100% by themselves they work very hard to achieve it. You are your harshest critic and when you breed for yourself you will have an easier time criticizing what you need to so you can accept the faults and work to improve them.

I think you need to take a very large step back. Get a dog from a breeder you respect. Learn through that dog, accept that dogs quirks, faults, and strengths. Work with that dog for a long time, in different avenues, learn that dog inside and out. Then when you're ready do it all over again. Focus more on learning about individual dogs, bloodlines, and how they all work and mesh together. Learn your breed before you try to jump in with a foundation female. Where you live when you acquire your foundation should be the last thing on your list..
 

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yeah, 4TheDawgies .

When you are talking foundation you are looking toward a 10 year program , minimum, of dedication and involvement. YOU the breeder have to have some experience because those getting your pups will look to you for support and advice .
Anything less than this , without a long term intelligent, thought out approach , is just breeding for a market .

4TheDawgies said " You are your harshest critic and when you breed for yourself you will have an easier time criticizing what you need to so you can accept the faults and work to improve them. "
If you can not be critical and analytical of your own stock , then you will slide the slippery slope into the pit and then have real trouble getting a foothold again. --- or quit out of discouragement.

Still want to?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs
 

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I believe your first foundation bitch would be co-owned also. At least if you were to do it the right way. You would get her from a breeder that would really like to keep her for the future but can't for certain reasons. They trust you enough to know you will work the dog and show the dog and therefor you become co-owners. At our young age, we have no idea what to even look for in a foundation bitch of ANY breed. And no, GSDs are exactly the same. A good breeder can spot the best dogs for shows in the first month. I couldn't tell you what to look for for the life of me, but they can. You really need to be close to a breeder for them to tell you those things, and I don't think your first dog of any breed will allow you to be that close. You have to show that person that you are committed, and until you title that first dog and go through everything it takes, you haven't shown anything.

I don't want you to take this next statement the wrong way, but right now your dog experience consists of having a husky for 2-3 months that you ended up re-homing, and many people won't accept that as being committed. You have to think of what that breeder is trusting you with and they can't have any reason to doubt that you will have this dog for its whole entire life.
 
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