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Discussion Starter #1
The late Sophia Yin in this video is using leash pressure and what I see as corrections via a head halter to control a reactive dog. I know that she was always opposed to prong collars, but it is my understanding that the muzzle is much more pain sensitive than the neck and she seems to be yanking up repeatedly.

She also calls this R-. I watched the video several times, and I do see a bit of negative reinforcement when she releases pressure when the dog looks up, but to me, many of the yanks seem to be P+ i.e. a classic correction.

I just see so many contradictions in "force-free trainers" as they say one thing, but do another for the sake of marketing purposes.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on this:

 

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A head halter and a "Bag O Treats!" I would ... "NEVER" use that crap on one of my dogs or dogs under my care. That looks
like a serious "Neck Injury" waiting to happen ... if used on the wrong dog! I just say no to "Petsmart Solutions" for badly behaved dogs ... unless they sell the "Pet Convincer" there also. :p
 

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I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.
 

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I liked the head halter personally. Worked well for me, but I also didn't ever yank on it. I kept the leash loose and if the dog was pulling away it would pull on itself, but I never directly put pressure on it.
Yep ... "On Paper" that is how it's suppose to work. :)

"Tools" of that sort "are suppose to "Self Correct The Dog." So in theory one would not be "yanking on the dog's neck." Sounds good on paper but best used with ... the right dog??? But ... in the real world, with the wrong dog and the wrong owner ... it works more like this. :


I will say, I am impressed that Sean kept that, uh ... thing on the dogs head! And it was not really much of a factor, course he used a "PC" for corrections and the head thing did not really play much of a role, in what he did.

I flatter myself, but I think I could have done the same thing "without the PC???" Of course ... I'd have taken the Head Halter thing, off the heads, wadded it into a ball and fashioned a makeshift SLL out of the other end! Not sure if that would count thou??? :p
 

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That dogs initial reaction was pretty mild. My wife tried using a head halter on Zoey years ago and her reaction was severe. I'm sure they work well for some dogs, just not mine.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Not my preferred way to get things done but I don't have a problem with what I saw there or the tools used.
My issue is not that she is using a head halter with R- or P+, but the fact that she and other force-free trainers encourage using head halters over prong collars when head halters are just as aversive and maybe even more aversive than a prong. This is just hypocrisy.

Now to be fair to Sophia Yin, she did not oppose prongs and ecollars as a last resort. But the misinformation that is being propagated by force-free trainers is truly ridiculous. And then you have force-free trainers that are even more extreme than her that believe under no circumstances should you use an aversive. The closest thing to an aversive for them is negative punishment i.e. withholding a reward or a time-out.
 

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LOL, these dogs are soft wanna be bully's, they just need a "Talk With Jesus" moment.


And then simple consistency! Follow up with ......Fairness and Consistency.

My god, these are soft dogs! What would these people do with a Real Dog?


A Hard Dog, well...that requires a "Talk with Satan" moment, but not to worry, 99% of people will never encounter a Hard Dog.



Kim
 

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LOL, these dogs are soft wanna be bully's, they just need a "Talk With Jesus" moment.


And then simple consistency! Follow up with ......Fairness and Consistency.

My god, these are soft dogs! What would these people do with a Real Dog?


A Hard Dog, well...that requires a "Talk with Satan" moment, but not to worry, 99% of people will never encounter a Hard Dog.



Kim
What about ... "Medium Hard???" The only dog to get past me and to Rocky ... at night, so uh total darkness ... I can't see in the dark, I messed up! But she did not do what the other dogs were doing?? Barking at the fence ... she slipped out??? She got in a quick hit and disappeared back into the dark ... ticked me off big time!!! :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I don't have a problem with someone being a hypocrite and recording the proof so I can point and laugh.
I liked your comment and then unliked it so people would not interpret me as being mean spirited as Sophia Yin took her own life several years ago. I picked her video because I think it happens to be one of the best examples of some of the serious fallacies and inconsistencies in the force-free training movement as a whole. There are force free trainers that I respect who admit to their limitations as trainers and will refer out cases they cannot handle to balanced trainers. Unfortunately, the majority of them seem to be evangelical extremists.

I would be interested in viewing a video of Zak George being taken down by a Rottweiler after forcing treats and hugs down its throat.
 

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I liked your comment and then unliked it so people would not interpret me as being mean spirited as Sophia Yin took her own life several years ago. I picked her video because I think it happens to be one of the best examples of some of the serious fallacies and inconsistencies in the force-free training movement as a whole. There are force free trainers that I respect who admit to their limitations as trainers and will refer out cases they cannot handle to balanced trainers. Unfortunately, the majority of them seem to be evangelical extremists.

I would be interested in viewing a video of Zak George being taken down by a Rottweiler after forcing treats and hugs down its throat.
I don't think anybody watches your likes that closely lol.
 
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