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Discussion Starter #1
To me they are often counter productive.

Accepted breeders and practices go something like this:

Hobby Breeder.
Titles potential breeding stock themselves.
Breeding stock and lineage should be titled.
All should be health tested. Hips and elbows and other health test such as for DM.
Working line preferred.
A few litters a yea.r
This is a short general version of the more acceptable forum dog and breeder.

The problem is there are not that many breeders like this and not everyone is interested in these things anyway.

Among the general population most don't know or care what IPO is.

When they come on here the quickly learn that their dogs suck because they don't fit the criteria and worse they may have even purchased from a BYB.

Often then they disappear to not be heard from again.

There must be a better way than insisting there is only one kind of breeder and one kind of dog that is acceptable.

On another note. There is no breeder bashing allowed. So the solution to that is for someone to announce that they have PM'd someone. Which is board speak for "your breeder stinks".

Has to be a better way. This way it is not very welcoming or understanding of about 90 percent of the GSD owning population. IMO.
 

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Yes we could tell them their pets is wonderful and everything the breed should be. Ofcourse he is awesome, happy breeding!

Its a free country, if they want to breed their pet they can. However, that does not mean that they should recieve affirmation that their weak nerved dog has great breeding potential or comes from a great breeder.

IPO is the main reason there are still working calibre GSDs available, it really doesnt matter if most people dont care. Most people are not breeding GSDs even if they own one.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.

The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.

First the breed and then IPO.

IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce.

IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..

You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.
 

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Jacks Dad, are you involved in IPO? I think I read on one of these threads that you own a nicely bred dog, who was bred by an active working kennel. I could be wrong. Just going off my fuzzy memory. I have read too many threads.
 

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I have gotten that feeling on here more then once. Threads that have nothing to do with bite work all of the sudden have someone making a comment about it. I tend to ignore threads that even remotely look like it will favor one type of dog. I have no interest in IPO and yet I took Robyn for an evaluation. Why? I felt that I had to prove something and I'm still not even sure to who. She passed, whoop d do. After she passed I told them no thanks and moved on to agility. I have a Craigslist GSD and a shelter GSD and they are perfect. My focus is enjoying my dogs and to do what's right by them with diet, exercise, and veterinarian care. I'm not going to let science decide that because my dogs come from a breeder that they might or might not get ill. I also have nothing against breeders that put everything they have into producing the GSD, whether it's a show dog, therapy dog, agility dog, or police dog, etc. No one can predict what will happen no matter where they come from. It's the same with kids, we can only hope they will be healthy and we certainly aren't going to give them up if they get sick, we just don't know. They all need a home and they all deserve one. At the end of the day I know I have very stable good temperament dogs and I don't care if they would protect and I don't need them to bite a sleeve to prove it one way or the other. I go to sleep at night feeling blessed to have them in my life and I feel safe. I can only hope they know how much I love them and what I would do to keep them safe. I don't have anything against people who do the sport, but I don't think those dogs are any better then the rest and that is the feeling I get from some(not all). I just don't let it bother me anymore and I enjoy what I have and they can enjoy what they have, so everyone is happy.
 

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I don't personally think that all dogs really need to be IPO titled to be deemed breed worthy. However, the GSD is a working breed, so it should have some working experience to speak of. It could be IPO, Herding, police, SAR, what ever. Just as long as the dog is really tested. That is the important thing to me. The dog just needs to be trainable and be able to work under pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Jacks Dad, are you involved in IPO? I think I read on one of these threads that you own a nicely bred dog, who was bred by an active working kennel. I could be wrong. Just going off my fuzzy memory. I have read too many threads.
Not involved in IPO. Yes I have two working line dogs from kennels who are actively involved. I prefer working lines. Personal preference but I believe the forum should include everyone.

Many who didn't get their dog from an "approved breeder" or it is not the "right " kind of dog are drowned out. Many have left.

If this was a working dog forum I would understand it.
 

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Not involved in IPO. Yes I have two working line dogs from kennels who are actively involved. I prefer working lines. Personal preference but I believe the forum should include everyone.

Many who didn't get their dog from an "approved breeder" or it is not the "right " kind of dog are drowned out. Many have left.

If this was a working dog forum I would understand it.
Many of the experienced GSD folks or breeders no longer post here. Or if they do it isn't often. The GSD use to be a working breed, those that actively work or train aren't the ones that are drowning out others are they?
 

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I don't personally think that all dogs really need to be IPO titled to be deemed breed worthy. However, the GSD is a working breed, so it should have some working experience to speak of. It could be IPO, Herding, police, SAR, what ever. Just as long as the dog is really tested. That is the important thing to me. The dog just needs to be trainable and be able to work under pressure.
Right and working in some households is the dog watching over the house. There are lots of pet homes that aren't involved in anything and those dogs aren't bad off because it works for the family. Yes it would be great if all GSD's could be involved in something but they aren't and that doesn't make them any less of a GSD. Geez if everyone set out to make their GSD's breed worthy we would have many more in shelters and dying daily. There has to be a balance somewhere. This is a wonderful breed and I could never tell someone they don't have a quality dog because it doesn't do this or that. That dog means the world to them no matter what the dog does.
 

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Many of the experienced GSD folks or breeders no longer post here. Or if they do it isn't often. The GSD use to be a working breed, those that actively work or train aren't the ones that are drowning out others are they?
I see a lot less of the breeders that breed show lines. Yes the GSD is a working BREED but does it have to be IPO? Some people think that is the only thing out there that proves a GSD is a GSD. The division on this forum is amongst the lines, but in the end they are all the same breed.
 

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Right and working in some households is the dog watching over the house. There are lots of pet homes that aren't involved in anything and those dogs aren't bad off because it works for the family. Yes it would be great if all GSD's could be involved in something but they aren't and that doesn't make them any less of a GSD. Geez if everyone set out to make their GSD's breed worthy we would have many more in shelters and dying daily. There has to be a balance somewhere. This is a wonderful breed and I could never tell someone they don't have a quality dog because it doesn't do this or that. That dog means the world to them no matter what the dog does.
I really dont understand why more GSDs would be dying in shelters if breeders were more careful to make sure thier breeding stock were breed worthy before they bred them. Can you elaborate on what you mean?
 

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I see a lot less of the breeders that breed show lines. Yes the GSD is a working BREED but does it have to be IPO? Some people think that is the only thing out there that proves a GSD is a GSD. The division on this forum is amongst the lines, but in the end they are all the same breed.
I didn't say anything about IPO...
People who BREED should be held to higher standards than those owning pets. They should be proving their reason for choosing certain dogs to reproduce.

You decided not to do IPO after an eval. An evaluation is a tiny step in the big picture of the sport. Earning titles in IPO is more about the journey for most, it isn't about titling with the end result to breed. Enjoyment in the training(or addiction to) is why most of us do sport, it has nothing to do with breeding our dogs.
 

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I have gotten that feeling on here more then once. Threads that have nothing to do with bite work all of the sudden have someone making a comment about it. I tend to ignore threads that even remotely look like it will favor one type of dog. I have no interest in IPO and yet I took Robyn for an evaluation. Why? I felt that I had to prove something and I'm still not even sure to who. She passed, whoop d do. After she passed I told them no thanks and moved on to agility. I have a Craigslist GSD and a shelter GSD and they are perfect. My focus is enjoying my dogs and to do what's right by them with diet, exercise, and veterinarian care. I'm not going to let science decide that because my dogs come from a breeder that they might or might not get ill. I also have nothing against breeders that put everything they have into producing the GSD, whether it's a show dog, therapy dog, agility dog, or police dog, etc. No one can predict what will happen no matter where they come from. It's the same with kids, we can only hope they will be healthy and we certainly aren't going to give them up if they get sick, we just don't know. They all need a home and they all deserve one. At the end of the day I know I have very stable good temperament dogs and I don't care if they would protect and I don't need them to bite a sleeve to prove it one way or the other. I go to sleep at night feeling blessed to have them in my life and I feel safe. I can only hope they know how much I love them and what I would do to keep them safe. I don't have anything against people who do the sport, but I don't think those dogs are any better then the rest and that is the feeling I get from some(not all). I just don't let it bother me anymore and I enjoy what I have and they can enjoy what they have, so everyone is happy.
Ok I have to comment on this because it's been posted multiple times now. It doesn't matter if your dog passed an EVALUATION to BEGIN thinking about training in IPO, that doesn't mean she could title. Two totally different things. Every one of my dogs would pass the eval (and 3 have) but only 1 of them has actual nerves that are worth a crap. Two would get by on drive at a club level and the other isn't really nervy but just not a sport type dog. "Passing an evaluation" is worlds apart from training and titling.

I don't think anybody has ever put down your dog (or dogs) or said she was horrible or undesirable, it's just that she's not a dog you would build a breeding program around. Sometimes people make this about their own dogs, like people are saying they are terrible and there's no way you should love or even like them, instead of about the real issue which is GSDs in general. My dogs are not breeding material but I still love them to death and it doesn't hurt my feelings for anyone to point out their faults.
 

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Ok I have to comment on this because it's been posted multiple times now. It doesn't matter if your dog passed an EVALUATION to BEGIN thinking about training in IPO, that doesn't mean she could title. Two totally different things. Every one of my dogs would pass the eval (and 3 have) but only 1 of them has actual nerves that are worth a crap. Two would get by on drive at a club level and the other isn't really nervy but just not a sport type dog. "Passing an evaluation" is worlds apart from training and titling.

I don't think anybody has ever put down your dog (or dogs) or said she was horrible or undesirable, it's just that she's not a dog you would build a breeding program around. Sometimes people make this about their own dogs, like people are saying they are terrible and there's no way you should love or even like them, instead of about the real issue which is GSDs in general. My dogs are not breeding material but I still love them to death and it doesn't hurt my feelings for anyone to point out their faults.
The point of my post was that I took her for the evaluation because of stuff I read on here and how important it was, etc. I didn't care about the sport nor did I have any desire to do the sport. I know it's more then the evaluation and she still has a wonderful bite and loves the sleeve, but that is not the point. And yes my dog has been put down and I was temp banned for defending her. Silly right? Now I know it was but back then I was new and I was nothing less then bullied. Now I don't care what people think, but there are lots of newer people that go through the same thing and just give up and don't come back.
 

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it's def a culture here that almost despises pet homes. the word 'pet' is mostly used in a demeaning way.
the most offensive I've ever seen it used were threads like 'should I breed my dog' and people would say 'no, spay your pet'
I felt like hitting someone
 

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to be honest, IPO is as much about the handling as it is about the dog. And the handler has to have a very thick skin to carry on. Giving up happens pretty often, those that stick with it prove their mettle.
I guess if one can't handle a forum discussion, and leave then it is a good thing for the health of the person's mentality.
 

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The point of my post was that I took her for the evaluation because of stuff I read on here and how important it was, etc. I didn't care about the sport nor did I have any desire to do the sport. I know it's more then the evaluation and she still has a wonderful bite and loves the sleeve, but that is not the point. And yes my dog has been put down and I was temp banned for defending her. Silly right? Now I know it was but back then I was new and I was nothing less then bullied. Now I don't care what people think, but there are lots of newer people that go through the same thing and just give up and don't come back.
I actually disagree that there are lots of people on here going through this unless it's by PM. I read here a little usually every day because I'm obsessed with reading, and I don't see this happening. What I see is people getting all defensive because someone asks what makes their dog breeding worthy, which is ridiculous. That is a valid question and one the owner should be asking themselves, and good breeders I would think would want outside unbiased opinions of their dogs. That means their faults and weaknesses too. The vast majority of dogs should not be bred, period. I don't know what specifics you are talking about re: your own dog, but I would bet it was blown out of proportion because I feel like you get defensive about this stuff. Just my opinion from reading on here a lot.
 

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it's def a culture here that almost despises pet homes. the word 'pet' is mostly used in a demeaning way.
the most offensive I've ever seen it used were threads like 'should I breed my dog' and people would say 'no, spay your pet'
I felt like hitting someone
I'm a pet home (hope to eventually do sport, but alas... I don't have the time right now), and I have never been discouraged or demeaned in any way here.

The people asking "should I breed my dog because she's really pretty and the sweetest dog ever" really do need to be told "no, spay your pet." People get all twisted when they don't hear what they want to, but that doesn't mean they don't need to hear it. And people get combative and then the whole thing usually spirals. I am guilty of reading threads that I know will be a spectacular display of sheer stupidity. And when I say stupidity, I don't mean "I don't know squat but I want to learn", I mean "Should I do this? No?! YOU DON'T KNOW ME! YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!"

It's not that this forum doesn't like pet owners, it's that they don't really like owners who don't actually care about the breed or what it's supposed to be. I'm a pet home, but I believe in solid breeding. There may not be many showline breeders on this forum, but the ones that are are well respected. The breeders that are universally despised here are the ones breeding carelessly, breeding soft, watered down, oversized. And yes, breeding "pets".... in the sense of, "I don't want an active dog, I never leave my house, but I like the look of a GSD."

The pet homes that are respected here are the ones that appreciate the breed for what it is supposed to be (a working breed, and yeah, the definition is open to interpretation), and comes willing to learn and work with their dogs.

Sorry, I just get all riled up when people cry about "pet owners are hated here"... often the people who say that (not saying you in particular, lala) posted questions, didn't like what they heard, and took something the wrong way.
 

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Thanks Blitz for the perfect example.

The GSD did not come from nor was it created to do IPO.

First the breed and then IPO.

IPO was created for the breed in order to judge potential breeding dogs impartially, follow that piece of info to the logical conclusion. 90% of dogs in IPO are not breed worthy. Similarly contemplate that nugget.

IPO will tell you something about the dog in front of you not guarantee what it will produce.

IPO represents (from various different sources) less than 10% and more like 1% of the GSDs in Canada and the U.S..

Yes 99% of GSDs in Canada and the USA do not meet the minimum standard of what makes a working dog.

You have something against Dogs for the blind. I don't think they do IPO first.
No I have nothing against guide dogs, but it is not the ideal temperment or drive for the GSD.

Again here is a hint, if labs and Goldens can do and are infact the majority of dogs doing "IT" it its not a breedworthy occupation for the GSD.

Can some dogs do it? Yes
Should those dogs be touted as ideal. Emphatically NO



As to those concerned about this being a working dog forum.. Have no fear about 99% of the threads currently active should put your hearts at rest that this is very much mainly a pet forum.
The majority of people on here and that own these dogs are not realistic about what they have or what makes a breeding dog.

That does not mean their mis information or fantasies should be affirmed.
 

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My feeling is rather what ugavet somewhat posted.

Most new and some old posters, (not being specific, just a generalization), don't like the answers to their questions. They come on here all gung ho on breeding Fido, and when someone points out why it probably shouldn't be done, they get all defensive, peeved, leave, and do what they are going to do..They come for validation and when they don't get it, they get into a tizzy.

And it's not just the breeding aspect , it could be any topic..

I admit I can absolutely lose patience and probably post things that aren't all sweet and nice or what one might want to hear. BUT I have never ever said any dog posted on this forum was 'ugly' or doesn't deserve to have the best life ever or put down where the dog came from.

I don't care that my working line dog(s) haven't been 'worked' or shown in years..I just don't do it anymore, they are for my enjoyment and fill my life daily..I don't care what others think.

I DO think breeders should be held to a higher standard, be producing the best they can, and I think the breeders on this forum, when they do contribute something should be taken seriously because the majority of them have been doing it for years , and are a wealth of knowledge.

When one posts something, they should be prepared to hear the good with the bad and decide for themselves what is worth listening to and what isn't..
 
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