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When did Black and Red/tan become more favorable then the sable of old and why? I love all coats just curious to learn more. I understand the differences in lines but what made the American show and Seiger lines go the way of Black and Red/tan then following original foundation dogs?
 

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The black and red coat came about by the way of two brothers in Germany.One was the head of the SV and they bred for that color and foisted it to the forefront. I no nothing about pedigrees, only what I've read here and elsewhere. There's a very long thread with lots of info and strong opinions on the r+b WGSL if you want to delve into it sometimes.Hopefully someone with more knowledge will chime in:)
 
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I'd bet a lot stems from Rin Tin Tin to create the original popularity boom. I believe the original dog was sable but was depicted on TV as a black and tan.

Then Bullet from Roy Rogers, Max the Bionic Women's bionic dog, and more recently, Sam from I am Legend with Will Smith and Rex from the TV show Hudson and Rex were all both Black and Tans. Movies and television have created them as the "standard".

Dark sables are seen as more menacing to the general public. Red is just a deep pigment black and tan but there's no doubt they're stunning.
570757
 

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SZ 25573 (DOB 1911)

so the markings, the pattern, the "saddle" go way back


SZ 1133695 (DOB 1967)

but the legend of "the martin brothers and the big black/red show split" stem from quanto vd wienerau. I really don't want to get too into all that, but I will take the opportunity to point out that quanto was heavily linebred on alf v nordfelsen


SZ 739163

you'll find this dog somewhere in the pedigrees of many/perhaps most "working lines" extant

I've long hypothesized the "saddle" was contributed by some other breed early on, and farther down the line worked its way onto both sides of the peds enough to become dominant. But I don't know anything about color genetics?


SZ 331999

However, now here comes the fun part, while deep diving the annals of hovawart history awhile back I came across an obscure reference regarding a "working jackal tax" the govt levied back in like the 1700's. Not sure if it was the habsburg monarchy or prussia? maybe both? Goodness only knows what they regarded as a "jackal?" But whatever it was, apparently there were enough of them running around germany back then for the tax collectors to take notice?
 

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SZ 25573 (DOB 1911)

so the markings, the pattern, the "saddle" go way back


SZ 1133695 (DOB 1967)

but the legend of "the martin brothers and the big black/red show split" stem from quanto vd wienerau. I really don't want to get too into all that, but I will take the opportunity to point out that quanto was heavily linebred on alf v nordfelsen


SZ 739163

you'll find this dog somewhere in the pedigrees of many/perhaps most "working lines" extant

I've long hypothesized the "saddle" was contributed by some other breed early on, and farther down the line worked its way onto both sides of the peds enough to become dominant. But I don't know anything about color genetics?


SZ 331999

However, now here comes the fun part, while deep diving the annals of hovawart history awhile back I came across an obscure reference regarding a "working jackal tax" the govt levied back in like the 1700's. Not sure if it was the habsburg monarchy or prussia? maybe both? Goodness only knows what they regarded as a "jackal?" But whatever it was, apparently there were enough of them running around germany back then for the tax collectors to take notice?
That first dog looks super lean and leggy. I suppose I'm supposed to know who that is? Looks taller than breed standard :D
 

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ok so this is kind of interesting:

"Flora came from working stock. There was speculation that the line was selected not on confirmation but on their ability to work. Flora was the only known puppy in her litter, for no other was registered. She was bought by Riedekenberg Kennels who repeated her breeding. That litter produced Asta Kattentum, who produced Dolli von Glockenbrink, who in turn produced the 1926 & 1928 Sieger Erich von Glockenbrink."



SZ 275752

I've looked at a lot of live working male pedigrees, and only a very few descend from this dog. Near as I've been able to ascertain, this is "the rarest" (fewest/least common) of the remaining "working lines."
 
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