Grimm has had no bones for about 3 days. He strains to poop, and it is just a bit of soft poop. He is only getting: turkey meat, yogurt, brewers yeast, white rice, a tiny piece of liver the size of a fingernail (only once per day), tiny bit of kelp, and now salmon oil with vit. E.
He gets about 5 30 grams of turkey groundmeat per meal, twice a day. He is maybe(?)constipated as he does strain to go, tiny amount of soft stool, he is very thin, and seems lower on energy than is usual for him. What am I doing wrong?
I was already at the vets today for a big hotspot he has... the vet did NOT do an exam.. they don't do that here if you are on welfare, as you don't pay for "an exam" here.. you pay for each thing looked at-- like ears, eyes, etc.
The vet just did not have time for me... had me as a walk-in, and they were closing early. Grimm got antibiotics shot for the hotspot and antibiotic pills.. i will try to get some probiotics too, to prevent a flora problem from the ABx.
Ideas how I can feed him better? I will up his intake to 550 gramms twice a day. Tonight I want to give him a chicken drum with his ground turkey. Will that make constipation worse? I am not even really sure this is constipation-- he strains, and a bit of puddingy poop comes out.
I would add pumpkin to his diet. can you get 100% pure canned pumpkin there? Like Libby`s it must have NO other ingredients. A tablespoon with each meal(if you feed twice a day) Pumpkin works both ways as a laxative or anti diarrhea.
I don`t know metric but it doesn`t sound like much food.
Originally Posted By: BrightelfGrimm has had no bones for about 3 days. He strains to poop, and it is just a bit of soft poop. He is only getting: turkey meat, yogurt, brewers yeast, white rice, a tiny piece of liver the size of a fingernail (only once per day), tiny bit of kelp, and now salmon oil with vit. E.
First, I would stop the kelp. this can make dogs itchy. Rice is binding so this plus the turkey (which is lean) plus lack of fiber from bones is probably adding to the constipation.
Quote:He gets about 5 30 grams of turkey groundmeat per meal, twice a day. He is maybe(?)constipated as he does strain to go, tiny amount of soft stool, he is very thin, and seems lower on energy than is usual for him.
He is not getting enough fat in his diet. Dogs require fat for energy. I would switch to chicken - can you buy some whole chickens and cut it into quarters and give him a 1/4 of the chicken per meal (or 1/2 the chicken in one meal per day?)
You could also add eggs (with shell) to his diet. Egg Shell can also be added to plain meat to "replace" bone. They actually sell powdered egg shells. I would strongly urge that you join a couple of the raw yahoo lists. You can search the archives and usually find answers to some of your questions. Also there are people from Europe on those lists sometimes who might be able to help you find products.
Can you find some green tripe? This is great for dogs. They had a great article in the Whole Dog Journal this month on it.
Okay.. so bone is okay now? I will stop the rice, or try to.. he is so thin! I agree, he needs more fat. This is so confusing. i will stop the kelp.
I will let his dinner be then: a chicken drum, (if bone is okay now?) a turkey groundmeat.. because we are just beginning raw, and have used turkey, i will switch to chicken a bit cautiously. Or does it matter at this point? Chicken for MM is ok too?
Given that the original post had nothing to do with itchy skin or allergies and the fact that kelp supplies a much needed nutrient, iodine, I don't understand why your first comment was to stop the kelp. Saying that it *can* make dogs itchy doesn't mean that it *will* and being itchy had nothing to do with her question. . .
Originally Posted By: GS MomHe is not getting enough fat in his diet.
I disagree. Let's say Grimm is 85 pounds. His minimum daily fat requirement would be 28 grams. Each ounce of turkey provides 2.31 grams and she is feeding 38 ounces right now. This equals 88 grams of fat daily- more than three times the amount required!
Now Grimm might need more *calories* to maintain weight, but doesn't *need* more fat. Each dog is different in the amounts of fat they can handle and Patti has written numerous times about how Grimm cannot handle much fat in the diet.
Patti- any chance that there is an obstruction?
The antibiotics that you were prescribed will likely help to loosen him up as antibiotics often do that to the digestive system.
What if you feed the antibiotics plus change to chicken and Grimm starts having horrible runs- how will you know which change caused the outcome?
Can you get metamucil or phylum husks? Basically fiber. That would help.
Am I the only one here that sees something wrong with this???
Forget the pumpkin and whatever else, this poor dog is obviously at the very least extremely uncomfortable. He's thin, low energy, strains to poop, etc, etc.
Patti, I myself have sent you PM (which I still have) and asked you to join K9 Kitchen to get help in learning how to feed raw but for some reason you refuse to take good advise. It's obviously that you have no idea how to put a raw diet together and that's ok but it's not ok to make Grimm suffer for it.
IMHO Grimm shouldn't be on a raw diet with his previous health problems, especially if he can't tolerate much fat. Not every dog will do well on raw and trust me you don't want him to end up with pancreatitis on top of everything else he has already gone through. What are you going to do if he has to have surgery or gets seriously ill because of this?
There is an adjustment period for any type of new food. Be it raw or a new Kibble. Patti is here asking questions because she is concerned about Grimm. Trying to scare the crap out of her and make her feel horrible certainly won't help. She asked for help, you took the time to post here and instead of being helpful your going over the top of criticism.
Perhaps she did not join your forum because of your attitude. I feed raw, and after that post I certainly wouldn't go to you for advice if I had any questions.
I'm going to ask what will appear to be a stupid question -- how badly does Grimm need the abx for his hotspot? Can the abx wait?
Grimm has run what appears to be SIBO-like symptoms on and off. Abx, as Natalie points out (and has been my experience) can make GI issues better or worse, depending on what abx and the condition of the dog's GI tract before they're started. Is it possible to find a straight probiotic like acidophilus and similar (human quality), that isn't too expensive? Not yogurt, unless we're positive that Grimm isn't sensitive to dairy. Yes, I know that acidophilus is derived from dairy, but it has far less lactose in it than a dollop of yogurt does.
If his GI tract bacteria is all out of whack, which is what you've suspected for some time, giving him the wrong antibiotics won't necessarily help -- wrong, as in they're not right for SIBO, even if they're right for his hotspot. I know that Val (my go-to source for all things probiotical, which is a word I just made up) says that probiotics need to be given 6 hours from the abx, but depending on the strength of the abx, that may or may not balance things out well, when things are as imbalanced as they seem to be. If perhaps we can get things balanced with a healthy course of probiotics for a while, then he may be able to tolerate the abx better (while continuing the probiotics, of course.
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Liver causes runny poop; in my experience, it causes worse runny poop than other OM. Can you find something else to feed for now?
I am worried that Grimm isn't eating bone. He's still young, and he really needs it. Egg shell is a great calcium source, but not a balancing source of phosphorous. He needs both. IF he can tolerate dairy, he'd be better eating cottage cheese which has far higher levels of phosphorous. (2:1 phosphorous/calcium ratio, you can supplement with eggshell to get the ratio to 1: 1.4 calcium to phosphorous), IF he can handle the fat, regular cottage cheese would be phenomenal as a source of calories and protein. But if he can't, low or fat-free is perfectly great. I know, these aren't cheap. At least, not here. Maybe you can find a nice milkman or dairy that is willing to give you/sell you cheaply their leftovers?
Finally, I have to say, some dogs simply cannot tolerate raw diets. I have one of them. As much as I would love to feed her raw, she cannot tolerate it. She got runny poop and kept it throughout the entire duration, no matter what I fed her, no matter how many changes I made. She thrives on a cooked diet, with some kibble mixed in. She looks great and has a ton of energy. I know there are other dedicated knowledgeable members here that have had similar experiences. I know it may sound like blasphemy to say it here in this forum, but raw isn't for all dogs. It's great, but it's just *one* way of feeding a dog. It's not the best way if it doesn't work for our particular dogs.
I know you want what's best for Grimm. I do too. But I am starting to wonder if raw is it.
I made the comment because I think that since she has added the Kelp he has gotten the hotspot. Some dogs don't handle kelp well. His gut may be irritated from the turkey legs. I find the bones large and hard, especially in the ones not attatched to a small turkey. Turkey is considered lean and how do you know what the % of fat is in a product from Germany?
Dogs do not get their energy primarily from Carbs like people. Since liver is a natural laxitive, this may be who his stool is soft, but if he has some kind of blockage that may be why he is straining. He may not be pooping much if he is not getting enough calories. You might want to check how many calories is in a pound of turkey, it may be you need to feed him more by the "calories" than by weight.
While I choose to feed the dogs in my care RAW, I do agree it's not for everyone. Based on the fact Patty has limited resources, storage, knowledge and other issues facing her, I would think Grimm would be better off on kibble and she can give him raw bones on occassion to keep his teeth clean.
Many of the breeders in Germany feed Eagle Pack, you might want to try that for Grimm and see how he does.
Actually, Grimm had been on human grade probiotics for almost a month in prep for raw switch.. but his poop had been perfect for many months anyway. Grimm tolerates yogurt, he gets that 2X day now. I will start probiotics up again-- because his hotspot needs the abx. The abx is just 1 time daily, so I can give the probiotics many hours apart. The vet specificly said that this particular antibiotic was especially healing for the gut... not sure what she meant by that.
Lori, I am switching Grimm to meals with a chix quarter in them, so he will have bone regularly. You are right, he is still growing, and bones really cannot be the problem. Chix quarters are easy to get here thank God!
Because I this whole venture with the turkey drums being too bone-y.. then the MM-only days following it being too.. well.. soft-poop-y.. I think much of the beginning problems are making sense. In just 10 days, I tried several types of turkey RMBs to find the one that works for Grimm..... this clearly will take trial and error. I think 10 days of scrambling to adjust things at the beginning... may be too soon to determine if raw is or is not for Grimm.
I changed his RMBs now to chicken, since he has had over a week of turkey. I think these are chicken leg quarters (i took the organs out, since he had a tiny piece of liver earlier) as they have a piece of spine and a leg bone to them. This will up the fat, and MM will stay turkey for a bit, and sometimes chicken.. at this point, I can start using chicken for MM too I think?
Lori, I will definitely consider raw may not be for Grimm. I want to get percentages closer to what they need to be, get him on a diet with enough fat-- yet not too much-- and see if I can get him regulated on the raw. I am definitely open to raw not being for Grimm-- but feel I definitely need to give it a fair trial on a better-balanced diet than I have been able to do in just the first week. I'm still tweaking, as it were.
Thanks GSMom , I think beginning with turkey was not the way to go. The chicken bones will be much easier. I will see how he does on them. I feed them with some turkey MM, and I will cut the liver out for a few days and see how he is doing. Thanks for your input!
Lori-- I forgot to say, thank you, and Thank you Natalie, too!
I believe feeding raw should be "easy" giving dogs species appropriate foods that are good for them and not a finacial or mental burden on an owner. Over the years I have fed raw to alot of different dogs - GSD's, mixes, pups, old dogs and recently a corgi pup. I (knock wood) in all the time I have been feeding have experienced the problems you are having with Grimm. I feed very little poultry, but I will start youngsters and new dogs on chicken. I add variety usually pretty quickly, never just staying with one protein source for an extended period.
My recent foster came with Tetanus - she was on heavy meds and a few antibotics and didn't have any GI symptoms. She ate ground chicken, buffalo, and lamb for the 1st few weeks until she could "chew".
Try the chicken and see how it goes. You can feed him kibble primarily and add a few meals of raw in now and then. Many people feed both.The Eagle Pack food has some of the digestive enzymes in it. I would ask around about green tripe - this could solve alot of your problems. It has many health benefits for dogs, especially having balanced calcium phosporous ratios,is sligthly acidic which aids digestion, and lactobacillus acidophilus.
I got the information from the USDA database as I do not know of a German database. I assumed that a farmed turkey is a farmed turkey and that even if the nutrient values weren't exactly the same from country to country that they would be pretty close.
Thanks GSMom, will do with the chicken. He has done well with it in the past. Hoping to see things go well with the chicken RMBs. We have had perfect poops on raw.. but, this is a learning curve for me. Yesterday was perfect poop.. today pudding-y. I need to find what works best for him. This is new for us yet.
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