[Docphil91]

Hey guys we recently got our male pup. He is 11.5 weeks, he is already in basic obedience and we have had him temperament tested and the trainers we work with think he would do well as a protection dog. I have been really struggling to find trainers who actually train protection level dogs in MO? Any advice or can anyone point me in the right direction? He cannot start till he gets his last round of shots but the sooner the better. ]
thanks
Phil

 

[Chip Blasiole]

You can't really say if an 11.5 week old pup is a candidate for protection training. You don't start protection training with a pup. Also protection training means different things to different people. Do you want a man stopper or more of an image dog that gives the illusion of protection. What is your dog's pedigree? That will help guess the odds that the dog has the genetics for a true protection dog. Why do you need a protection dog? A gun is the best protection because a true bad guy will just shoot a dog. There are a lot of people out there who say they train protection dogs, but most don't know what they are doing.

 

[Steve Strom]

Hey guys we recently got our male pup. He is 11.5 weeks, he is already in basic obedience and we have had him temperament tested and the trainers we work with think he would do well as a protection dog. I have been really struggling to find trainers who actually train protection level dogs in MO? Any advice or can anyone point me in the right direction? He cannot start till he gets his last round of shots but the sooner the better. ]
thanks
Phil

Not to be a smart - but if you can't find someone who actually trains protection dogs, then you also aren't hearing from anyone that knows he'd make a good protection dog. Keep playing with him and having fun and look for a club doing one of the bite sports successfully, people trialing and titling dogs, active club with different events so you can see something tangible to get an idea of good helper work, and then see where that leads you.

 

[Chip Blasiole]

Finding good helper work for sports is no easy task either. While there is some overlap in sports training vs. PP training, a lot of sport training, especially sleeve sports, are counterproductive to training a PP dog. An experienced helper/decoy at a sport club should at least be able to tell you something about your dog's odds of becoming a PP dog, but they might not necessarily know how to correctly train your dog. Bite sports don't come close to challenging a dog to see if he can be a true PP protection dog. IMO, a PP dog is most useful in buying you time to get your gun.

 

[Docphil91]

Not to be a smart - but if you can't find someone who actually trains protection dogs, then you also aren't hearing from anyone that knows he'd make a good protection dog. Keep playing with him and having fun and look for a club doing one of the bite sports successfully, people trialing and titling dogs, active club with different events so you can see something tangible to get an idea of good helper work, and then see where that leads you.

The reason we are under the impression he will be good is both of his parents are protection dogs/working dogs. He also has a high prey drive and Is extremely motivated and responsive. He is also extremely advanced in his obedience even at 11.5 weeks. The breeders i got him from are not in the area i live. I traveled outside of my home area to get him. He was in Utah and i am in MO... so the Breeders do not have connection here.. they tested their puppies for working attributes at 8 weeks and while they cannot guarantee the ability to be a working dog, he passed the various testing that their trainers put him though. So no nothing is certain but i would like to find a trainer who does this exclusively so we can work in that direction if he is deemed to have these qualities. I also am new to this area i moved here for my doctorate and so do not have the needed connections to know who our where to even begin. Hence why i posted here.

 

[Docphil91]

Finding good helper work for sports is no easy task either. While there is some overlap in sports training vs. PP training, a lot of sport training, especially sleeve sports, are counterproductive to training a PP dog. An experienced helper/decoy at a sport club should at least be able to tell you something about your dog's odds of becoming a PP dog, but they might not necessarily know how to correctly train your dog. Bite sports don't come close to challenging a dog to see if he can be a true PP protection dog. IMO, a PP dog is most useful in buying you time to get your gun.

So where do i even start? Do i simply google sport clubs in my area? i agree. The whole purpose of the pp is to be able to buy me the time i need to get my gear. The puppy is very young but i would at Least like to get in the correct direction as to if we should pursue the protection route or more the search and rescue avenue/ tracking.

 

[Chip Blasiole]

Regarding your post to Steve, there are protection dogs and there are protection dogs. High prey doesn't mean a dog won't be a good protection dog, but a lot more is needed than prey. A protection dog needs strong, confident defensive aggression, which you won't know until he is more mature. Nerves have to be solid. Pain tolerance should be high. A degree of mistrust doesn't hurt. Territorial aggression is good. Sport dogs typically work primarily in prey. Many sport dogs, if kicked in the head by a bad guy would bolt. Sport dogs are not exposed to that type of training. Is your dog working or show lines? Puppy tests at 8 weeks of age are pretty useless except for identifying obvious faults. When the breeder says your pup's parents are protection dogs, that is only what they say and their opinion.
Are you anywhere near House Springs, Wertzville or Bolivar? If so, I can give you some e-mail addresses to contact as a start, but can't vouch for any of the clubs.

 

[Steve Strom]

The reason we are under the impression he will be good is both of his parents are protection dogs/working dogs. He also has a high prey drive and Is extremely motivated and responsive. He is also extremely advanced in his obedience even at 11.5 weeks. The breeders i got him from are not in the area i live. I traveled outside of my home area to get him. He was in Utah and i am in MO... so the Breeders do not have connection here.. they tested their puppies for working attributes at 8 weeks and while they cannot guarantee the ability to be a working dog, he passed the various testing that their trainers put him though. So no nothing is certain but i would like to find a trainer who does this exclusively so we can work in that direction if he is deemed to have these qualities. I also am new to this area i moved here for my doctorate and so do not have the needed connections to know who our where to even begin. Hence why i posted here.

Here's a list of USCA clubs in your region:

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/region-events/?cy=2020&cm=02&re=mc

I'm not saying anything negative about your pup. I'm just trying to give you an idea of where to understand whats involved in bitework. Sport is very open and public and gives you kind of a baseline to go from. PP, there isn't anything beyond someones word and if you aren't experienced in what your seeing? If you find a club thats actively trialing and titling their dogs, plural, you can have some confidence that the helper work is competent and thats who you'll want to listen to.

 

[Chip Blasiole]

My bias against schutzhund/IGP is that it imprints and emphasizes that the sleeve is the prize too much which can make a dog less man oriented. In dogs with very good genetics for man work, it is not as much an issue, but those dogs are not that common, in part due to sports like IGP which over select for prey in breeding in order to get points and on the podium. Sport has nothing to do with real life bite work and PP is all about real life bite work.

 

[Docphil91]

Got ya. I am wi

Regarding your post to Steve, there are protection dogs and there are protection dogs. High prey doesn't mean a dog won't be a good protection dog, but a lot more is needed than prey. A protection dog needs strong, confident defensive aggression, which you won't know until he is more mature. Nerves have to be solid. Pain tolerance should be high. A degree of mistrust doesn't hurt. Territorial aggression is good. Sport dogs typically work primarily in prey. Many sport dogs, if kicked in the head by a bad guy would bolt. Sport dogs are not exposed to that type of training. Is your dog working or show lines? Puppy tests at 8 weeks of age are pretty useless except for identifying obvious faults. When the breeder says your pup's parents are protection dogs, that is only what they say and their opinion.
Are you anywhere near House Springs, Wertzville or Bolivar? If so, I can give you some e-mail addresses to contact as a start, but can't vouch for any of the clubs.

i agree, i am willing to travel to work him. no offense taken. I knew both mom and dad and have waited a long time to get my hands on one of their pups for a long long time. The dad is a retired special force dog i worked with in the service. and the mom is a protection dogs that i was extremely extremely impressed with who is owned by an indendpendant contractor that would come thorugh and work with the team dogs we used. I fell in love with both of these dogs and constantly biothered both of the owners to breed them. They we both waiting for the “right” female or male to breed with. they finally breed the two dogs and my pup is one of the pups form said litter. I was extremely lucky to get him. His temperament thus far (he is still extremely young) is just what i wanted. so that is his line... doesn’t mean he will have the same tendencies or ability but i love the odds Of him having at least some of those tendencies. I guess i should have preffaced that better. his parents were not protection dogs they were working dogs in the army and i guess i assumed they were protection dogs? Anyways, i am open to all suggestions as far as help. i have reached out to a couple clubs and my buddy who owns the dad is also looking into good people out here but we haven’t found anything yet.
His nerves. He is 11.5 weeks. I love to challenge him... once exposed to a stimulate Like for example height he is initially wary. But once worked with it he doesn’t struggle again. I of course am not insane and having him jumping from high positions or the like but i will place him situations to make him uncomfortable and then we work thorugh the situation together at his pace but we get though it. He has done above expectations. like i said he will cry for a minute then when he realizes he isnt getting out of this until we get though it he does great. when presented the same or similar challenges he breezes through them. It’s amazing to watch him work. Hahah obviously i kind of like the little guy....
sorry long post. I just am extremely happy to have him and am excited about his future and am willing to do almost anything to see to it that if he has skills we train the **** out of them and give him the best life he can possibly have in whatever fashion of service that looks like.
-Phil

 

[Chip Blasiole]

You odds are increased having the sire being SF's dog because they tend to be the cream of the crop and have to pass rigorous testing.

 

[Docphil91]

You odds are increased having the sire being SF's dog because they tend to be the cream of the crop and have to pass rigorous testing.

Yeah.. i feel pretty fortunate to have him. I served with his Dad and his dad has the most amazing temperament but man when he worked he really worked. I loved his “switch” in my limited experience finding a dog that could differentiate between good and bad is hard. His dad had an ability to work hard and then if there were kids around or whatever and his handle allowed him to interact with kids he was increadbly sweet. I feel in love with him. Just an amazing dog. Of course i am extremely biased due to i went to war with his dad but that ability was just amazing. So i am hoping he has a bit of that as well. The switch. We will see. But i think it is evident now as to why i am training him so hard and why i am trying to find him good resources early.

 

[Chip Blasiole]

Google Wayne Simanovich. He has been into dogs for years and I believe has sort of a franchise of training facilities in most states including Missouri. If he doesn't have a facility near you, he might be able to recommend someone.

 

[Steve Strom]

If Wayne Simanovich was local to you, that would be a good choice. Old time Rottweiler guy with a lot of success in Schutzhund:

Protection Dogs from World Class Leader Wayne Simanovich

Simanovich Protection Dogs have received top placements and awards in international competitions. Learn more about World Class Protection Dogs.

www.simanovich.com

 

[Jorski]

@Docphil91 Maybe try reaching out to top trainers around the country and ask them if they would recommend anyone in your area.

 

[wolfstraum]

Would you please post your pup's pedigree or at least links to his sire and dam. That is the starting point as to whether the potential is there for work and what kind possibly.

Thank you.

Lee