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Only my experience

GSD #1 from a byb, missing a toe nail, had Demodex mange twice and there was a concern that he might have mild HD.

GSD #2 from a breeder, staph infection, multiple worms, inverted vulva, fleas and later developed EPI.
 
I could never in good conscience believe that any GSD had temperament issues that were clearly linked to genetics unless I raised it myself or had an expert's assessment on the dog. Not even mentioning the threads on this board - I've seen people spoil the crap out of their dogs, or ignore them completely, or give inconsistent training, you name it. But all these owners have one thing in common: they wonder what's wrong with their dogs. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to raise a GSD, but you sure don't want them raising themselves, lol.


ETA:

GSD #1) BYB, flea dermatitis, bad with kids, adopted as adult
GSD #2) Breeder, DA, adopted as adult
GSD #3) BYB, somewhat DA, Therapy Dog, raised from puppyhood
GSD #4) Breeders, allergies, raised from puppyhood
 
That's what I was looking for Laren. Thanks

I will do extensive research next time, I will be looking for a breeder that does it all, health tests, shows, works and titles, has positive feedback from puppy buyers and has great reviews from other breeders. I will also be going with a different breed.
 
Only my experience

GSD #1 from a byb, missing a toe nail, had Demodex mange twice and there was a concern that he might have mild HD.

GSD #2 from a breeder, staph infection, multiple worms, inverted vulva, fleas and later developed EPI.
If this is the breeder I'm thinking of, would you really consider GSD #2 to be from a reputable breeder though? Based on everything I've heard... he's just a fancy BYB charging responsible breeding prices.
 
If this is the breeder I'm thinking of, would you really consider GSD #2 to be from a reputable breeder though? Based on everything I've heard... he's just a fancy BYB charging responsible breeding prices.
I didn't say reputable, I merely said breeder. :)

I plead the 5th on this comment. I will PM you.
 
GSD # 1 - BYB, purchased at 12 wks, no health or major temperament issues *knock wood*

GSD #2 - BYB/Shelter, took into foster care at 1 yr (his breeder was forced to turn him in) and kept him. No temp or health issues *knock wood*

GSD #2 - puppy mill/rescue. Have her pedigree, nothing special. Bought by older couple who turned her into a rescue that I fostered her for and kept her. Was itchy as a pup requiring special food, still doesn't do well on a bunch of "high end" foods, some GI issues, fear aggressive. Hard to say if her issues are genetic or due to the extremely poor handling by her first owners.

7 years in GSD rescue as a foster and evaluator and most of the dogs I see do not have significant health or temperament issues. I can probably count them on one or at least both hands.

Would I buy from a BYB again? No. Would I get a rescue again? Possibly. My needs have changed for what I need in a dog. So, with that in mind and since I now have a child I would likely go to a well known, reputable breeder unless I came across a dog I really liked in rescue. But that's a ways off since 3 is my limit and they are all relatively young.
 
I also like pursuing dog sports that my dog seems to enjoy, but unlike some others here, I can’t imagine a day where the sport would determine the dog I would seek out.... maybe that is just because I am not looking to compete, my motivation is to form an even stronger relationship with my dog.
Hey now, those things aren't incompatible. ;)

Anyway I wanted to go back and touch on this point because I think performance sports have the potential to be an important corrective to some of the deleterious influences of the conformation ring. Obviously this isn't as simple as Sport Good, Show Bad -- there's still a risk of hyperspecialization and overuse of popular/winning dogs, just in a different direction -- but I do think that the breeds where there's not such a clear-cut division between conformation and performance, and the breed fanciers expect that a champion dog will also have advanced sport titles, are in better shape than the GSD.

...and, uh, I had something else I was going to say here, but I got distracted for 20 minutes and lost my train of thought, and anyway it's probably already encompassed in one of those threads about the importance of titles in breeding.

Short version is just that I think performance people buying purebreds is probably a net good thing for the breeds (albeit not without some downsides, because everything has downsides).

Of course, I'm a bigtime dog sport partisan and think it's a good thing for rescue dogs, too!
 
Hey now, those things aren't incompatible. ;)

Anyway I wanted to go back and touch on this point because I think performance sports have the potential to be an important corrective to some of the deleterious influences of the conformation ring. Obviously this isn't as simple as Sport Good, Show Bad -- there's still a risk of hyperspecialization and overuse of popular/winning dogs, just in a different direction -- but I do think that the breeds where there's not such a clear-cut division between conformation and performance, and the breed fanciers expect that a champion dog will also have advanced sport titles, are in better shape than the GSD.


Of course, I'm a bigtime dog sport partisan and think it's a good thing for rescue dogs, too!

Re: the bolded parts - I agree. :)
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
GSD # 1 - BYB, purchased at 12 wks, no health or major temperament issues *knock wood*

GSD #2 - BYB/Shelter, took into foster care at 1 yr (his breeder was forced to turn him in) and kept him. No temp or health issues *knock wood*

GSD #2 - puppy mill/rescue. Have her pedigree, nothing special. Bought by older couple who turned her into a rescue that I fostered her for and kept her. Was itchy as a pup requiring special food, still doesn't do well on a bunch of "high end" foods, some GI issues, fear aggressive. Hard to say if her issues are genetic or due to the extremely poor handling by her first owners.

7 years in GSD rescue as a foster and evaluator and most of the dogs I see do not have significant health or temperament issues. I can probably count them on one or at least both hands.

Would I buy from a BYB again? No. Would I get a rescue again? Possibly. My needs have changed for what I need in a dog. So, with that in mind and since I now have a child I would likely go to a well known, reputable breeder unless I came across a dog I really liked in rescue. But that's a ways off since 3 is my limit and they are all relatively young.
Congratulations on the baby Jamie.

Training dogs will be a piece of cake compared to your new venture.
Well if your child's temperament doesn't turn out to well you can blame it on your husbands genetics or the way he was raised.:D
 
I get the concept of the ethical breeder, I'm just wondering if BYB. shelter, rescue dogs are really proportionately higher represented with health and temperament problems.
Are we talking about purebreds? I tend to see trends depending on the breed. I've seen a LOT of poorly bred purebreds, and yes, I believe they do have more health problems than those bred ethically with health and proper temperament as a concern. For example, I see a lot of Shih Tzus, and the BYB dogs have skin, ear, eye, and skeletal issues. Lots of VERY bad structure, to the point of crippling.

It's been my experience that BYB GSDs do tend to have a lot of problems. Spooky/flighty or fear-aggressive temperaments, HD, and extremely sensitive stomachs/allergy issues are some of the things I often see.
I see a lot of nervous, spooky, hypersensitive BYB GSDs. I think that in our breed, temperament is the hardest thing to nail down and if it isn't rigorously tested for, this is what happens. For the physical ailments like HD/ED, allergies, GI issues, and autoimmune disorders, they can pop up in any breeding and in thinking about it, I honestly can't say whether BYB GSDs are worse in this respect. Part of it is that average BYB pet owners don't xray, they don't test for things until they start seeing symptoms. So some things like HD/ED may remain undiagnosed.

Now, to your question – do “BYBers” produce a disproportionate amount of dogs with health and temperament problems? I doubt it.

But, I would say the answer would depend on the type of BYBer we are talking about. Are we talking about the BYBer that has a great pet? The BYBer who needs to make some extra cash? The one that thinks this is a great long-term money making business? The one that has a fabulous working farm dog?
Indeed, not all BYBs are equal. Some of what many would consider BYBs may actually be producing healthier dogs than top show breeders. Some of these top show breeders, although many would consider them "reputable", are breeding primarily to win conformation shows. And we all know what happens when a breeders #1 concern is winning.

Around here, a lot of people breed working ranch dogs. I doubt they've had any health testing or xrays or anything, but these dogs are out working cattle or sheep all day, then go home and live with a family. Nobody bothers to spay/neuter so you have litters of Border Collies or Heelers or whatever coming off these ranches. I wouldn't be surprised if those dogs are healthier and live longer than dogs bred for generations to be top show dogs.

But as others pointed out, the reputable, ethical breeder will give you a lifetime of support with the dog. You have some assurance that, if something does go wrong, the breeder will be there for support, and you may have a guarantee of refund/replacement.
 
I pretty much agree with everything you've written, I just want to pick out some of these points for further discussion. :)

It's been my experience that BYB GSDs do tend to have a lot of problems. Spooky/flighty or fear-aggressive temperaments, HD, and extremely sensitive stomachs/allergy issues are some of the things I often see. My guess, which is only a guess, is that this is because the breed overall is in such bad shape owing in large part to the influences you described in your post, and BYBs simply do not have the knowledge (or, probably, access to the better bloodlines) necessary to fix it.

I feel like with many/most BYB dogs, what you get out is pretty much what you put in (or very slightly worse), and since the input dogs are not great, the outcome dogs are not great either.

It has not been my personal experience that BYB dogs in other breeds have the same number or severity of problems. I've seen plenty of BYB dogs that were nice pets but didn't have whatever original instincts the breed was supposed to show -- i.e., Beagles who won't hunt, Labs who won't retrieve, that sort of thing -- but what I see in those dogs is not the same as what I've seen in GSDs who land in our rescue network.

But mostly I see the dogs who get dumped in shelters and thereby make their way into the adoption networks I volunteer with, so there may well be some sample skewing going on there. It may be that those dogs are getting dumped because they have issues, I don't know. Even if it is, though, the fact remains that as a group they have a lot more problems than the mutts or other breeds we see.
Hi Merceil,

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner on this question.

Yes, it seems I am contradicting myself with the two statements that you quoted (that I do not know how to re-quote in this response... lol). I guess I need to make a finer distinction between what I see as the original source of problems and the continuation of the problems. I don’t think BYBers were the source of the problems in the breed. But, it is certainly likely that they are unwittingly reproducing the problems now that they are so endemic in the breed.

But, if you remove truly responsible and ethical breeders from the equation (which I suspect represent a tiny percentage of all breeders), I am still not sure if the rest of the breeders (puppy mills excluded) are really any better or worse.

I do know that there are far too many GSDs being produced and sold each year. But, how do we change that without either regulating supply or diminishing demand?

As to rescue/shelter dogs, my experience seems to have been different than yours. The majority of GSDs or GSD mixes that I have fostered have been good dogs – no major temperament problems. Were they perfect representatives of the breed? No, probably not.*** But, they were good dogs/pets nonetheless. So, that is why I do advocate for people to consider adoption first! From the dogs I have had exposure to, they would meet the needs of the vast majority of people who come here looking for a GSD.

***There was one GSD that I fostered that was truly remarkable from a breed standpoint… I am not a breed expert, but when people talk about what a GSD should be, he seemed to have had it all. He was transported to Chicago from a high-kill shelter down South. He was ~2-3 years old when I fostered him. I really enjoy hearing all the updates from the woman who adopted him – it was a great match!
 
I have had 2 dogs from rescue, 2 from OK breeders (no health testing, titles etc) and one from a breeder with all the cheçks in the boxes. One of my rescues had some health issues, the one from a "reputable" breeder has several terrible health issues and an undesirable temperament. Maybe I just got lucky with the other 3. The puppy that I'm getting in two weeks (not a GSD) is coming from a breeder that doesn't health test or title but is super passionate about the breed and had produced MANY outstanding dogs. I get along with te breeder and like her goals and the type of dogs she produces. I honestly don't jnow how much I believe in health testing anymore....seems like a lot of the breeds that are regularly health tested and titled before breeding are some of the most unhealthy breeds out there and have the most issues. Maybe it's just my imagination. After the experience I've had I think my future dog purchases are going to be based on what I feel about the indivual dogs and breeder and not what kind of health testing and titles they have. Not saying that should be the way to do it, just what is going to work for me right now.

ETA only two of these dogs were GSDs. One from an OK breeder and one from a reputable breeder. The rescues were mixes and the other an Aussie.
 
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