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Hello, i'm new to this forum and new to AKC standards. My wife and I have found two GSDs at purebredbreeders.com that we believe are adorable - siblings, in fact. I have asked for the pedigree for them and the attached docs were sent to me. A rep at PBB.com told me that they do not register dogs with the AKC and that we can register them once we decide on the names for our dogs (sounded logical). As I thought about this more, a question arose . . . if the dogs have no formal names yet, is AKC registration even possible? Also, the pedigrees they sent - they could be for ANY GSD, right? How do I know if the lineage on the pedigree are indeed related to the dogs that are for sale? Is there a way for me to know with certainty whether I'd be getting what is being pitched on the website? Does anyone have any experience - good or bad - with PBB.com? Thanks for any help you can provide.
 

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What the heck is PBB.com? A puppy broker??? ? Someone please correct me if my gut instincts to flee far and fast are wrong? Never seen this before.
 

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Not endorsing this breeder or getting two puppies at the same time, just wanted to answer your question about registrations.

Breeders don't necessarily register individual puppies but they do register the litter. As long as the litter has been registered you should be able to register a puppy from that litter.
 

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Yes PLEASE DO NOT support this!

Please research, Research, RESEARCH! and look at threads on this site about looking for a puppy. ;)


There are many qualified people here to assist you! A little info will help!

*Which "Type" of GSD are you looking for? German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide (Click on TYPE)

*What activities or sports do you plan on doing with him/her.

*What type of lifestyle do you have that will include the dog?

*Tell a little about yourself/your family!


*What is your price range? (usual is $1,600 to $3,000)


*What state are you in and how far are you willing to travel (hours/miles)?


*Are you willing to have a dog shipped?

Here are some good reading materials!
(German Shepherd and Schutzhund Articles, by Wildhaus Kennels )


Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder

German Shepherd Guide - Home


BTW, Welcome to you both! :greet:

Moms:)
 

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Yes, the breeder has to register the litter, then they send with your puppy the registration application. Without it, your puppy cannot be registered through the AKC.

There is NO acceptable reason for a breeder not to register a litter out of an AKC registered dog and an AKC registered bitch. It cost $2/pup plus about $30. So if there are 8 puppies, it would cost $46. No breeder without sanctions against them would not do this for the puppies/new puppy buyers. It is in their interest to do it. The only reason not to do it, is, if the breeder has been suspended by the AKC, or if they are giving puppies away for free and do not want people making puppies out of them. If someone has been suspended by the AKC, then they cannot sell puppies that the AKC will register, because they have proven themselves untrustworthy, unethical, or cruel to their animals.

Don't walk, run away from people that are running this sort of business. The only way they will stop the behavior is to be unable to make money on it. Buying a pup, even for half price, even for less than what others are selling pups for, will keep these people going, and that generally means it will keep dogs suffering. Don't be a part of that problem.
 

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Drescher Haus is a reputable breeder as far as I know. That's really sad that one of their dogs ended up in this situation.

To answer your questions....

1. The site listed is nothing more than a broker site.

2. Correct, you have no way of knowing if the puppy you receive is actually the puppy from the pedigree. Breeders dont' care. Brokers don't care. A paper goes with an animal and the buyer is happy. No questions asked until someone comes on a site like this with a sable and shows pictures of two black and tan parents (genetically impossible!)

3. That pedigree looks working line. How these dogs ended up in the hands of someone that sells thru a broker is probably a sad story.
This is the sire's pedigree
Litter from Gunther Von Rivers and Lou Lou Vom Rivers
Mother's pedigree
Greta Vom Drescher Haus

4. So you have this working line pedigree that you really know nothing about. You have one line in that pedigree known for handler aggression and high aggression. I see Czech lines in there that could mean the dogs are harder dogs.

5. I bet they are charging a pretty penny for those puppies as well! A working line puppy, directly from a reputable breeder is $1500-$2500. A breeder that supplies a health guarantee, a health history from their lines, and lifetime support. Not just a guarantee thru a broker site that may or may not be worth more than the ink on it.

6. RUN RUN RUN from this site.

7. Tell us what you are interested in (lines, activity level, color) and we can recommend good breeders to you.
 

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The likelihood of two same age males fighting at maturity, @2 years of age, is very high.
 

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Yes, the breeder has to register the litter, then they send with your puppy the registration application. Without it, your puppy cannot be registered through the AKC.

Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?
 

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No questions asked until someone comes on a site like this with a sable and shows pictures of two black and tan parents (genetically impossible!).

In all fairness to purebredbreeders.com, the rep did state that the mother was solid black and the dad black/brown. As I recall, the image on the site showed the puppies as black/brown. The rep also reiterated what was stated here . . . that the litter is registered with the AKC and that we would use the documentation provided to register our puppies (if we bought them). After reading what I've found here, I see that I'll need to study this thing a lot more before making a decision.


Tell us what you are interested in (lines, activity level, color) and we can recommend good breeders to you.
We don't want to breed but we want two so they can keep each other company. They will be outside dogs. My wife and I have no kids and probably won't have any in the future. We're in our late 40's. We want intelligent dogs and we've both always admired the the looks of the GSD. We're open to other shepherds but don't know a lot about any of the shepherd breeds. I've had dogs all my life - various breeds but no German Shepherds. My wife has never owned a dog (only cats). We'll walk them, play ball with them but, for the most part, we want them for companionship as we age. We have a yard large enough for them to run and play together (another reason we want two - so they'll run each other to death instead of running us to death). We want dogs with even temperaments - nothing aggressive.
 

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Didn't know that. Thanks for the info.
I should have added that female / female aggression can be quite common too and can be rather nasty.

If you would get two puppies, I would get one of each sex.

I see you also are looking for a German Shepherd with little aggression. A well bred German Shepherd should have at least a modicum of human aggression. The standard calls for them to protect and guard. I am sure there are breeders that have litters with little to no aggression. If you do decide to get a pup, or two, please carefully do your homework to find a breeder that is producing dogs that should have the genetic temperament you are looking for.
 

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rider - it is soooooooo easy to fall in love with pics of a puppy - or two!! ALL puppies are drop-dead cute, and we can get emotionally invested in just a picture. Those broker websites are carefully set up to hit all the right buttons, to say all the right things. Puppy mills (and brokers/sellers for puppy mills) know what to say and how to say things so it all sounds legit and impressive. Don't be fooled!! It is not!

I took a look through the GSD pups posted on the site - to tell the truth, they don't look like pups from good breeding. They don't look like pups that would be produced from the pedigrees you posted. Some of the pups don't even look like pure bred GSDs! I see some Husky and other breeds mixed in, yet here they are, selling them for big bucks, representing them as pure-bred dogs, with fake pedigrees.

You are right in questioning the authentication of the pedigree - they can be faked, or they could be sending you any two pedigrees they have on hand. That is the reason that it is important to go to a trusted breeder with a good reputation, someone with integrity, someone who would never try to lie and trick their puppy-buyers, or mis-represent themselves or the origin of their pups.

You seem like a pretty savy dog-buyer that you picked up on the pedigree question, so I'm sure that all this info is a gold-mine for you. Take a few minutes to read through these links, be an educated, knowledgeable buyer and dog person. I took many of us YEARS of reading and being involved in dogs to learn the ins of navigating bad puppy mill/dog broker sites, and recognizing good breeders and breeding practices. You are benefiting from this collective knowledge, please don't dismiss what people are saying because the broker on the phone said "such and such".

Getting litter mates (or two puppies close in age): BAD IDEA. In fact, it is such a bad idea that there are many articles written about how much of a bad idea it is available on the internet from trusted sources, and they explain why:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/167994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html

Also, websites like you linked are so common, we have a sticky that helps explain what some of these sites are all about.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/626034-spotting-puppy-mill-breeder-sites.html
 

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rider - it is soooooooo easy to fall in love with pics of a puppy - or two!! ALL puppies are drop-dead cute, and we can get emotionally invested in just a picture. Those broker websites are carefully set up to hit all the right buttons, to say all the right things. Puppy mills (and brokers/sellers for puppy mills) know what to say and how to say things so it all sounds legit and impressive. Don't be fooled!! It is not!

I took a look through the GSD pups posted on the site - to tell the truth, they don't look like pups from good breeding. They don't look like pups that would be produced from the pedigrees you posted. Some of the pups don't even look like pure bred GSDs! I see some Husky and other breeds mixed in, yet here they are, selling them for big bucks, representing them as pure-bred dogs, with fake pedigrees.

You are right in questioning the authentication of the pedigree - they can be faked, or they could be sending you any two pedigrees they have on hand. That is the reason that it is important to go to a trusted breeder with a good reputation, someone with integrity, someone who would never try to lie and trick their puppy-buyers, or mis-represent themselves or the origin of their pups.

You seem like a pretty savy dog-buyer that you picked up on the pedigree question, so I'm sure that all this info is a gold-mine for you. Take a few minutes to read through these links, be an educated, knowledgeable buyer and dog person. I took many of us YEARS of reading and being involved in dogs to learn the ins of navigating bad puppy mill/dog broker sites, and recognizing good breeders and breeding practices. You are benefiting from this collective knowledge, please don't dismiss what people are saying because the broker on the phone said "such and such".

Getting litter mates (or two puppies close in age): BAD IDEA. In fact, it is such a bad idea that there are many articles written about how much of a bad idea it is available on the internet from trusted sources, and they explain why:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/167994-should-i-get-two-puppies-dogs-once.html

Also, websites like you linked are so common, we have a sticky that helps explain what some of these sites are all about.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/626034-spotting-puppy-mill-breeder-sites.html
^^^yes, Yes and YES^^^ :wink2:

PLEASE have an opened mind, and read all of above and more.
You need to CAREFULLY consider .... before embarking on this possible 10-15 year journey with a GSD.

Best of luck to you,
Moms:)
 

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We don't want to breed but we want two so they can keep each other company. They will be outside dogs. My wife and I have no kids and probably won't have any in the future. We're in our late 40's. We want intelligent dogs and we've both always admired the the looks of the GSD. We're open to other shepherds but don't know a lot about any of the shepherd breeds. I've had dogs all my life - various breeds but no German Shepherds. My wife has never owned a dog (only cats). We'll walk them, play ball with them but, for the most part, we want them for companionship as we age. We have a yard large enough for them to run and play together (another reason we want two - so they'll run each other to death instead of running us to death). We want dogs with even temperaments - nothing aggressive.
Dogs don't really do as great a job keeping each other company as you may think. Its the relationship with you that matters most. Its generally a lot easier to raise and train 1 puppy, then if you want two dogs, get another one later. For me, that's usually better at around 2 years.

If I was you, I would meet some breeders and their dogs face to face. I wouldn't depend on an online description of their temperament. What I like may drive you crazy and everything makes more sense when you see the dogs in person.
 

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Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?
Unlike the registries for a lot of other animals, the integrity of the AKC stud books rely on the integrity of the breeders, for good or bad. The only dogs that are required to be DNA profiled are imports, Frequently Used Sires (males who sire more than three litters in a year and/or sire more than seven litters in their lifetime), and males who are used for a Multiple Sire Litter. Other than that...

If the breeder says that the puppies are registerable with the AKC then you would get a registration form, like the one shown in this link. Sample Application - American Kennel Club In order for the puppies to be registerable, the parents would have to have full registration. Dogs who have Limited or Conditional Registration cannot have any offspring registered.
 

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Ok, bare with me. I'm not understanding how the AKC system maintains integrity. If I were to buy a puppy (from anyone) and the seller states that the puppy is "full registration AKC" and I believe him/her, then I would get the pedigree and puppies. Can I then use that AKC documented pedigree to register my puppy with the AKC? Does AKC work on the honor system? This can't be right. What am I missing?

Like GUILT - Integrity is presumed until proven otherwise!


Let's define the terms....

PEDIGREE is a document of the dog's ancestry - parents, grandparents, great grandparents.....some breeders provide this document, some do not. You can purchase this document from the AKC

REGISTRATION - 2 parts to this

1. Application - some people will give you an application which you send to the AKC with a fee to register your puppy. The breeder has to register the whole litter with the AKC. He gives the parents names and AKC numbers, the owner of the male must sign to indicate his male is the father and he is permitting the owner of the female to register the litter. Some people leave the name blank for the owner to fill in, some fill in a portion, some fill it in totally. This document also allows the breeder to indicate "FULL" or "LIMITED". Full has no restrictions on what the owner will do with the dog. Limited indicates the breeder does not allow the dog to produce puppies to be AKC registered.

Some breeders, particularly those of us who breed to German registry criteria, will register the whole litter using the European system of naming pups in alphabetically consecutive letters and kennel name....these people are also more apt to sell on limited registration.

2. Registration Certificate - this, like your auto title from your state DOT, states Owner, Breeder, Breed, Parents names and numbers. It is a certificate of origin and ownership. It is NOT an indication of quality. Your Kia gets the same certificate from your state DOT as does my boss' Rolls Royce.

AS above, Breeders who follow the SV criteria quite often will provide you with a certificate for the puppy which shows them as the breeder and the owner of record. I can say from experience, over half the buyers never bother to send these in for a transfer to their own name.

MAINTAINING INTEGRITY

As stated above, all imported dogs must be DNA tested. Any sire producing over 4 litters must be DNA tested. AKC apparently assumes that breeders will report the correct dam of the litter. A sire who is collected and frozen must have a DNA profile on record with the AKC.



Oh - and I agree - do not get littermates, do not get 2 of the same sex and actually - I would recommend waiting at least a year between pups.....

And GSDs should not live in the yard...they are very attuned to people, and are fondly called "velcro dogs"....Personally I would not sell a puppy to anyone who intended to do any one of these things, let alone both.

Lee
 
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