[Mrs.K]

About 20 minutes from here is a very good local hunting dog trainer. Today I talked to him for about half an hour because I was curious.
He told me that they train "find a buck' or 'find a duck' dogs, where the dogs are sent out and they have to cover huuuuge areas, sometimes 200 or 300 acres and if they found something they come back, with a bringsel in their mouth to indicate and than lead them to the buck.

This is classic area search and how crazy is it that a hunting dog trainer is the only one using the bringsel?

I know it has been said before to watch bird dogs etc.
Anyhow, guess where I am going on Saturday to work out a training plan and who is going to learn how to train the Bringsel as indication.
Just talking to him about what we do, the similarities are crazy. He knows this area in and out and he used to train Swat Dogs for a living before retiring.

And maybe I get to learn how to hunt too
Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[JackandMattie]

That sounds so cool! Tell an ignorant woman what a bringsel is??


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[Lauri & The Gang]

A bringsel is a short stick or other device that is suspended from the collar of a trained dog and that the dog takes in his mouth as a signal to the handler that he has located an objective (as a wounded man). Compliments of Merrium-Webster.

He told me that they train "find a buck' or 'find a duck' dogs, where the dogs are sent out and they have to cover huuuuge areas, sometimes 200 or 300 acres and if they found something they come back, with a bringsel in their mouth to indicate and than lead them to the buck.

What I find hard to believe is that a buck would just stand there waiting for the dog to return to the hunter and then lead them back to where it was.

Especially if the dog was 200 acres away from the hunters!!

 

[JackandMattie]

A bringsel is a short stick or other device that is suspended from the collar of a trained dog and that the dog takes in his mouth as a signal to the handler that he has located an objective (as a wounded man). Compliments of Merrium-Webster.



What I find hard to believe is that a buck would just stand there waiting for the dog to return to the hunter and then lead them back to where it was.

Especially if the dog was 200 acres away from the hunters!!

Thanks, Lauri! Guess I could have looked that up. Doh!

I was also wondering how that happens. The buck isn't just gonna hang out. Guess the dog brings the handler back to the sighting and tracks it from there?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[gsdsar]

My lab has all of her foundation work fir hunting. It is a blast!!

But I too find it odd that the hunter uses the dogs this way. Kind if takes away the point of hunting.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[Mrs.K]

My lab has all of her foundation work fir hunting. It is a blast!!

But I too find it odd that the hunter uses the dogs this way. Kind if takes away the point of hunting.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I think it has more to do with deer tracking for wounded deer?
He was also talking about flushing dogs but I will find out more on saturday.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[NancyJ]

Yeah had not heard of using the bringsel but know several folks with hunting dogs who that before they got into SAR

Cyra was a nice little airscent dog and I was once flanked by a bird hunter and she said how she worked a lot like her bird dogs casting for scent.

 

[Mrs.K]

It did sound like the hunting dog trainer was just as excited as I am. I will definitely report

 

[carmspack]

strange not to be moving along with the dogs . Did a lot of research into both Bavarian and Hanoverian hound dogs used to trail injured game for miles , with as little as one spilled drop of blood every 20 - 30 feet, all weather conditions , aged track. Also looked into Basset Fauve du Bretagne . I think the Bavarian and Hanoverian are smart looking animals with single minded dedication to hunt/search. I particularly like a strong natural instinctive tracking , searching dog.
never encountered a dog working 200 to 300 acres alone and then bringing a bringsel to indicate a find . Too easy to loose a dog , and sometimes the injured quarry is still on the move. Bayerische Gebirgsschweisshundezucht / Militzer´s Meute / Bilzingsleben / Thüringen

 

[Kingsj]

It is a common occurance, once an animal is shot, to see the animal run away. The hunter will go to where he/she thinks the animal was struck and look for blood sign. If there is no blood, the hunter will assume the shot was a miss. More blood indicates a more deadly shot which equals a shorter distance to find the animal. When shot and if able, the animal will run until they reach what they feel is a safe distance, then lie down. If the game is mortally wounded they will usually die in that spot.

Depending on how much trail sign is available, the animal can be VERY hard to find. I have heard of standard dachshunds being called to help track big game that has been shot and lost.

Concerning the "find a buck" problem, I do not know why you would work an area search-type problem, though. There is almost always a point of last known location to start from. And I would assume there is blood to trail, as well, if you believe the game is injured.

I'm not trying to be contrary, just pointing out that it would look more like a trailing problem than an area search in a big-game hunting situation.

I guess for "find a duck" it is a bit of an area search, but even then, ducks (and most other fowl I know of) are shot with a shotgun and limit the range you need the dog to travel to about 150-200yds? And the way I've seen them train is to go out on the line the hunter sees the fowl fall. A well trained field lab will travel for several hundred yards in a straight line through brush and over water until he smells the kill, or thinks he should, and then he'll start casting.

If you are really training to do a classic area search of 200-300 acres, using a bringsel, I am sincerely interested in hearing more about your training. I like the idea of the bringsel, but do not know enough about it to start training with one. Also, I think there are a lot of things hunters teach we can learn from, and I try to be very open minded, especially when I see good results.

Please keep us updated on what you learn!

 

[ladylaw203]

Uh. that is bizarre. First of all do you mean the guy trains a dog to find a wounded deer? It is illegal to use dogs to find deer in many states mine being one of them. Then there is the duck thing. I have goldens and labs that are hunt tested. one shoots the duck and the dog retrieves the duck.Using a bringsel??? The dog brings the dog to ME. What is this guy doing exactly? using a bringsel is ludicrous for this. Bringsel training is not easy and I have never seen much use for it at all.
Also IF he is training to find live game by the time the dog gets back the game is gone. This is odd

 

[Lilie]

There is a difference between using dogs to recover wounded game and using dogs to run live game. Most states it is illegal to use dogs to run live game. There is an exception when it comes to feral hogs.

Within the state, there are counties (or parishes) that have specific requirements. Some require the dog to always be on a lead. Some do not have that requirement.

Keep in mind that a hunter does not want to wound an animal, they want a clean shot and for their quarry to drop.

When game is wounded, their body will begin producing a specific pheromone that the dog follows along with any blood that is dropped. However, a good 'blood' tracker can follow just the pheromone. THey can tell the difference between the wounded game and live healthy game that may cross the same track. They can track an animal into water and signal that the animal is in the water even if the body can't be seen.

Some hunters will use 'bay' dogs. Those are dogs who will bay when the wounded game is found. Some hunters will use GPS devices on the dogs collars. They'll wait until the dog stops moving before moving in. When a dog is on a lead, neither is required, but baying is looked well on as it will allow the hunter to know that the game is close, even on a lead.

Wounded deer have a natural instinct to bed down and conserve energy. Therefore, once wounded the hunter will allow time to pass before attempting to recover the deer. This will allow the deer to bed down and possibly die before the dog finds it. Using a dog to track a wounded deer who is in flight mode is frowned on as there is no reason to cause that sort of stress on the dying animal. And it will significantly lesson your chances for a find. The deer will bed down. If the dog comes across such an area and the deer is gone, some hunters will pull their dog and wait.

The training process of 'blood' tracking provides a high value treat at the end of the track. The best practice is using the same blood to set the track as the prize at the end of the track. Therefore, the dog learns to take it's prize even before the hunter arrives. In the case of a dead deer, the dog will begin to feed at the wound sight. As the dog was trained using 'dead' game (peices of raw meat) the dog will stand and bay if the game is still alive when found. Therefore, it is very difficult to utilize a trained 'blood' tracker to recover fowl, as the dog has learned to eat the game found. There are some dogs who can do both. But those are rare.

Most blood tracking dogs are utilized during bow season. A good blood tracking dog can be hired (along with the handler) throughout specific counties. They are certified (three seperate levels and the price can depend on the level of certification). Blood tracking dogs can be used for any type of game.

Serious handlers will not allow their dogs to track hogs as they don't send out a 'pack' of dogs to follow a track, but a single dog. Perhaps two if one dog is in training

 

[Mrs.K]

Serious handlers will not allow their dogs to track hogs as they don't send out a 'pack' of dogs to follow a track, but a single dog. Perhaps two if one dog is in training

Maybe that is exactly what he was talking about. Talking on the phone, is sometimes hard, especially when there is an accent involved.

Thank you for clearing all that up without calling it all bogus. I'm new to the Hunting world, I don't know anything about the dogs, what exactly they are used for other than Blood Trailing or Bird dogs. So for me to get something wrong, can easily happen.

Again, I will find out more on Saturday. I do know that much. He's the go to guy in this area and he is very well respected, he is also a guide and I believe he can be hired.

As for the Bringsel. If I feel that he is a good trainer, I will let him teach me how to use it. Staying openminded is important, especially since there is a big standstill in the SAR Community, where I live. Whatever I can learn and that lets me move forward, I will soak it up like a sponge!

The next team is three hours away from here. The other team I'm looking at doesn't even have a current K9 Team, they do have, however, experienced handlers that worked 9/11 but both the dogs died of cancer afterwards.

So I'm stuck! If I can learn something from a hunting dog handler, who also used to train SWAT dogs in his former life, which probably means that he's got some area search experience.... I'm going to do that.

Whether some find it Bizarre or not, doesn't matter to me, because I'm sure, I can learn a lot from this guy, if he is who he says he is. But so far, I've only heard good things about them. So I will check it out.

 

[Lilie]

Thank you for clearing all that up without calling it all bogus. I'm new to the Hunting world, I don't know anything about the dogs, what exactly they are used for other than Blood Trailing or Bird dogs. So for me to get something wrong, can easily happen.

I think anytime a person tries something new with their dog(s) it's a win/win for both the handler and the dog. Blood trailing is a fun game to play even if your dog never goes on a real track. I only have one dog that actually tracks (my Lacy) yet I play the games with all my dogs.

You're a smart lady. You'll know if this guy is a wack-a-doddle when you start working with him.

 

[Mrs.K]

Lillie, is a Decay Dog a dog that would track wounded deer?

 

[Lilie]

Lillie, is a Decay Dog a dog that would track wounded deer?

I don't know. I've never heard of the term before. I could ask, though, and see if I can get any information on it.

 

[Lilie]

As for the Bringsel. If I feel that he is a good trainer, I will let him teach me how to use it. Staying openminded is important, especially since there is a big standstill in the SAR Community, where I live. Whatever I can learn and that lets me move forward, I will soak it up like a sponge!

Be aware that SAR groups do not allow game tracking dogs to do any SAR work. I suppose for obvious reasons.

My Lacy's half brother (same bitch) does SAR work. Apparently he rocks at it. The handler isn't permitted to do any type of game work with her dog.

 

[gsdsar]

Be aware that SAR groups do not allow game tracking dogs to do any SAR work. I suppose for obvious reasons.

My Lacy's half brother (same bitch) does SAR work. Apparently he rocks at it. The handler isn't permitted to do any type of game work with her dog.

If you are talking blood trailing, maybe. But I know of countless dogs cross trained in USAR and also to Hunt and retriever tests. In fact I am working with my FEMA dog on hunt work.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

 

[Lilie]

If you are talking blood trailing, maybe. But I know of countless dogs cross trained in USAR and also to Hunt and retriever tests. In fact I am working with my FEMA dog on hunt work.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App

I wonder if the difference could be recovery or rescue. The lady I spoke of (above) does recovery.

I seem to recall a thread on this forum a while ago, where they were saying you couldn't do both as well. I really don't know. But I'd think that would be something to check on before making a final decision.

My Lacy is trained on blood tracking. But as a game we send him out looking for a live person. We use a totally different command. His body language is totally different. Blood tracking he is dead serious and quiet. On a person find, he is excited and vocal. Somehow one is work and one is a game.

 

[NancyJ]

I think the difference is it depends on the opinions of the team leadership. Our own team very strongly leans toward single-purpose dogs and does not encourage "other" scent work, though is fine with agility and fun sports people may want to do as long as it does not interfere with SAR training and search obligtations. We also don't allow bite-trained dogs. [let's not discuss that one here; it has been beat to death].

Who is to say that is right or wrong?

I would think cross training in any non-human odor (such as wounded game, nosework, narcotics) would definitely be a no non for a cadaver dog though.