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Discussion Starter #1
I am bringing a GSD pup home in 6 weeks. The breeder will have the papers, first few shots, chip and vet papers for me when I pick her up. I'm paying $750 for her. I was wondering.....one day I would like to breed her, what would I need to have from this breeder in order for me to be able to do that one day? thx.;)

oh...i was told the mother is from an american/german bloodline and the father comes from a czech working line? thx.
 

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I will be blunt with you - for 750$, I have my doubts that you have a future breeding candidate - not trying to be rude or say the price signifies quality, just that at that price, it is less likely that you have a breed quality specimen. You could very well have a quality dog that needs to be bred as well, but probably unlikely.

That said, what is the pedigree please? From what you are saying, sounds like a mishmash of lines - proceed with caution. Did you ask the breeder for a breeding dog? If so, I'm not sure how you are making these decisions when pups must be 2 weeks old at most...you cannot make honest evals on them yet. Usually when you pick a pup with intention of breeding, you do so with caution as you must see how the dog matures and develops before deciding for sure that it is a breed worthy candidate. I would not be thinking about breeding just yet - educate yourself about the breed, train/develop your dog, join a club, find a mentor, and wait to see how the dog matures...

Take a look at these links - good info:
Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html
 

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Make sure you get the AKC papers, with full breeding rights. Not a "Limited" registration.

And don't pay for the dog if you do not get papers. No papers, no $$$. There's no reason for papers to be "late". And registration is done online mostly anyway. (Okay, it is possible, but still don't pay for the pup without papers.)
 

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A better explanation about the fact that your dog is all sorts of different lines...

From a genetic point of view its wonderful to be mixing lines, and dogs that are probably not related to each other for quite the number of generations, because you're bringing in a lot of genetic diversity. What genetic diversity actually does is bring in a lot of questions about what the pups will actually be like. Puppies rarely reflect the temperament of the sire and dam, and many times are more like the grandparents, or possibly just one of the 4 grandparents and you could have no idea which one. When you breed dogs that have the same genotype...you get a more consistent litter with a better idea of what to expect.

In order to breed your future puppy...you'll like to prove that it should be bred. Possibly working it in different dog sport venues, getting objective people to look at the conformation and tell you how they feel about her, and then seeing if any worthy stud owner will actually breed to your bitch.

Start early...join a breed club...understand what's involved in breeding a dog, placing puppies, making a lifetime commitment to the puppies that you've produced. Thinking if the risk of your dog losing her life is worth a few hundred bucks made on some pups, if the risk of having to take back any puppies for any prolonged period of time because the family that you placed it with doesn't want the dog anymore (if you'll even do that, or you could just tell them to dump it at the pound) is worth the money.

As a side note...don't listen to what the breeder TELLS you about the lines. Check the pedigrees and ask others to tell you what the lines truly are. That way you have an objective/no sales pitch opinion on the dogs.

To answer you actual question...to breed a dog you just need breeding rights. Most breeders don't bother with actually writing those in the contract. The really good ones will just to make sure their lines stay protected and no one starts breeding dogs on their coat tails. It's that whole..."champion bloodline" thing which when you look into it means there is a champion but usually in the great grandparents or later.

In order to register any puppies you need to have FULL REGISTRATION from the AKC. This is something the breeder can/cannot grant. It is one of the ways they control breeding rights...many won't deal with this either, and some charge extra for it. Just recently I heard a story of a guy buying a dog from a hobby breeder where the price would've doubled (and well over the going price of a great dog) if full registration was included.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank you and thank you all for the information. Now you mentioned to check the pedigree. I have been reading on that a lot. But give me your opinion on how someone would check that? Any other suggestions you might have for me. I will post a pick of the 5 week old pup. thx.


A better explanation about the fact that your dog is all sorts of different lines...

From a genetic point of view its wonderful to be mixing lines, and dogs that are probably not related to each other for quite the number of generations, because you're bringing in a lot of genetic diversity. What genetic diversity actually does is bring in a lot of questions about what the pups will actually be like. Puppies rarely reflect the temperament of the sire and dam, and many times are more like the grandparents, or possibly just one of the 4 grandparents and you could have no idea which one. When you breed dogs that have the same genotype...you get a more consistent litter with a better idea of what to expect.

In order to breed your future puppy...you'll like to prove that it should be bred. Possibly working it in different dog sport venues, getting objective people to look at the conformation and tell you how they feel about her, and then seeing if any worthy stud owner will actually breed to your bitch.

Start early...join a breed club...understand what's involved in breeding a dog, placing puppies, making a lifetime commitment to the puppies that you've produced. Thinking if the risk of your dog losing her life is worth a few hundred bucks made on some pups, if the risk of having to take back any puppies for any prolonged period of time because the family that you placed it with doesn't want the dog anymore (if you'll even do that, or you could just tell them to dump it at the pound) is worth the money.

As a side note...don't listen to what the breeder TELLS you about the lines. Check the pedigrees and ask others to tell you what the lines truly are. That way you have an objective/no sales pitch opinion on the dogs.

To answer you actual question...to breed a dog you just need breeding rights. Most breeders don't bother with actually writing those in the contract. The really good ones will just to make sure their lines stay protected and no one starts breeding dogs on their coat tails. It's that whole..."champion bloodline" thing which when you look into it means there is a champion but usually in the great grandparents or later.

In order to register any puppies you need to have FULL REGISTRATION from the AKC. This is something the breeder can/cannot grant. It is one of the ways they control breeding rights...many won't deal with this either, and some charge extra for it. Just recently I heard a story of a guy buying a dog from a hobby breeder where the price would've doubled (and well over the going price of a great dog) if full registration was included.
 

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You should be able to get the pedigree from your breeder. A picture of the puppy isn't going to help anyone know if she's worthy of breeding - all puppies are cute!
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I am aware a pic won't tell anyone that.....but it does speak a thousand words? :eek:

I am still researching all sorts of different sites and trying to find the local GSD club. The breeder also mentioned she used a GSD club breeder to mate with her dog....he is the one who has the dad, grandparents, etc. Any other suggestions.....please don't be so plain in your suggestions. thx.

You should be able to get the pedigree from your breeder. A picture of the puppy isn't going to help anyone know if she's worthy of breeding - all puppies are cute!
 

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Have you asked the breeder for your puppy's pedigree? That would be a great place to start. :)
 

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Make sure you get the AKC papers, with full breeding rights. Not a "Limited" registration.

And don't pay for the dog if you do not get papers. No papers, no $$$. There's no reason for papers to be "late". And registration is done online mostly anyway. (Okay, it is possible, but still don't pay for the pup without papers.)
Actually, this is not true.

If the sire or dam is an import and their papers are not finished yet, then the papers would be delayed. Been there. Cupcake's papers were not ready when she was 8 weeks old and we started working on that the moment Odie arrived in the country. Sometimes it can take a long time. They were ready prior to them having needed them though.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sorry if the other one did not post the link of the pups father....

STUDS
 

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These puppies might make a good pets, but not exactly top quality breeding dogs.

Where's the info on the important stuff like health testing, titling, working potential, pedigrees, etc? There is plenty of info on how to pay for the dogs though.
 

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If you had been around the block a few times, I probably would not be overly concerned about getting a puppy out of multiple lines to be used for breeding someday. It is certainly not illegal. The pups can be registered.

What my concern is that if, as they say, the working lines have higher drives and higher intelligence, these combined really do not cater to the pet-market. Trust me that you will be selling exclusively to the pet-market. Highly intelligent puppies are the puppies that are always getting themselves in trouble. They figure out how to get out of everything. They wait for opportunities. They remember hours later where they found something etc. It is what we want. And coupled with high drive, you definitely want someone who knows what they are getting themselves into.

I hear a lot about high-drive working line puppies being little gators, and requiring a lot of time, and work to keep them out of trouble. People who know them, love them. These people aren't going to buy from you though.

The people who know the working lines, really do not want any part of the show-lines in their dogs. And the people who know show-lines really do not want working line dogs in their dog. It's not like you can mix a high-drive working line male with a low drive show-line and get 6 medium drive puppies. It doesn't work that way. You get some with high drives, and some with low drives, and maybe, if you're lucky one in the middle.

I think going across the line has merit as I think there is merit in all the lines, but you have to know exactly what you are looking to improve, and you need to know exactly what each dog produces, and you need to know how to evaluate those puppies to see who has what, and how to evaluate people to match those puppies to homes where they are likely to succeed.

If you can choose to opt out of this puppy, that is what I would do. I would put your money in the bank and get at least twice that sum, maybe more together. After all, your foundation bitch is so important that you want to get the best bitch possible, and maybe not even a puppy. You might want to start with an adult. You can ALWAYS raise one of her puppies. But an adult will have reached the proper size and can be evaluated for temperament, structure, health, and so much more. Where puppies are cute. You can raise an awesome puppy, great lines, great temperament, great intelligence, learning, good with kids and dogs and adult, only to be heart-broken when her hips fail OFA.

Good luck in whatever you decide. The website you showed I would not touch with a pole. Partly because it is their window to the world and they are not providing important information. For example, bitches must be approved by them and have health records and be registered. How about bitches must have hip and elbow certificates and a brucellosis test, among other things.

Don't get hung up on imports either. To be registered in the SV, the sire and dam must have jumped through many hoops (that these people are not, necessarily doing), but they still produce a lot of dogs that are not breed-worthy over there too, and unless you have a personal relationship with someone over there, they will send you their dogs that will not pass muster over there, certainly not their breeding-quality dogs. ANYONE can procure an import. I have one. She's great. She's breed worthy. But I got her as an adult, and through a friend who knew her breeder personally, and worked with him over many decades.

I just think that site that shows you a picture of a couple of dogs on leashes and calls them studs, and does not even give you the names of their sires and dams, may not have all the information they should to be crossing lines etc.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes it was. Very informative. Thank You.
 

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If you want a pup to breed I suggest saving up and buying one of the ones ranging from 1,200-2,000$. Also do not just settle for the first breeder you find. Look at them all, meet with the parents of both. Look at both pedigrees and vet records. Have someone who knows a lot about pedigrees look at them. Find out about there hips and elbows of the family they are from as well as the parents. Ask how they were growing up training wise personality wise. Ask every question you could possibly ask. AKC site has info on breeders in your area sometimes. This site also may have someone who knows one in you area. Make sure you spend time with the parents for a while before even thinking of buying one of there pups. If you dislike the parents you will probably dislike the pup too. Buying a cheap GSD for breeding is not smart if you are just wanting to breed to sell them later on. Pups cost a lot to take care of and you wanna make sure that the ones your pup will spit out will have the highest chance of having no genitic issues and will be worth it to someone else wanting to buy one.

My pup was 500$ but I would NEVER breed her looking at her pedigree, because its just a ordinary full blooded shepherd nothing special about her. She may even have a lot of health problems in the future, as well as fears, or training issues that will require extra training, but thats the chance I took on by buying one who was not over a grand. But ethier way shes my dog and I love her, but would never breed her because I don't think she should be breed.

But that's just my view point on it. Others have other opinions, just make sure you get the papers the day of purchase, and make sure you can spend time with the pup for 2 weeks before buying to be sure she/he is what you want. Also if you sell you the pup at 6 weeks walk away now, no breeder should sell there pup before 8 weeks take my word for it. It does cause issues I got mine at 8 weeks and I have been working threw the issues of it now. If you get your at 6 weeks you could have even bigger issues then I have with mine due to it so make sure they are selling them at 8 weeks not 6. Buying a GSD is something that will be with you for at least the next 8-16 years. May as well take the time now to make sure you get the best one to become a member of your family for that long.

As for what selzer said about high drive, my pup she is very high driven. She is a MAJOR gator and nips still at 4 months, you woulda thought I bought a baby crocodile and not a baby GSD. She will destroy every broom and mop in sight. Any thing that is the size of a squirrel to the size of a fox she will chase down to its death. Just yesterday I take her out to play and zooms out the door and caught her first squirrel. The week before that she killed her first snake. They do take a lot more time and a WHOLE lot more patients because they get in to EVERYTHING. But the great thing about them is if you find what they are driven by the most it the most amazing treat to them and they will do anything in their power to please you to get a hold of it. Like mine she will do anything for a tennis ball, or a kong ball so you can basically train her and the ball be her prize for doing it, she trys to fit 2-3 of them at a time in her mouth I swear.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Thank you all for the info. I visited the father razor at the kennel yesterday. He is and looks amazing. His temperament is great, he followed directions, and the owner is giving me his pedigree. I am visiting the mom and the pup later on today, the pup is turning 5 months this coming Monday. I gave her a deposit and I can change my mind at anytime. I will keep observing the pup for the next few weeks. This link below was very informative.

Grunenfeld German Shepherds home page

Thx.
 

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Highly intelligent puppies are the puppies that are always getting themselves in trouble. They figure out how to get out of everything. They wait for opportunities. They remember hours later where they found something etc. It is what we want.
Unless you don't like coming home from a 10 hour shift to find that your highly intelligent working line dog has amused himself by figuring out how to open all the kitchen cabinets with and has pulled all of your tupperware, pots and pans, and the crockpot off the shelves and arranged them around the living room. . . .

Really. Everybody wants a smart dog, until they own a smart dog.
 
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