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If a WGSL from known German showlines produces a black puppy from a recessive gene from a WL or other line way back in the pedigree, is the dog considered to be a WGSL or part WL or ASL, depending on where the black gene came from? Do WGSL ever produce solid black dogs? If so, why don't we ever see them?
 

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A dog who has been bred for generations for the black and deep brown color and structure to compete in the conformation ring, it is WGSL even if it might carry the black recessive. Generally dogs that carry the black recessive also have a more extended saddle or blanket pattern. Even if a WL was used at some point back a number of generations ago, but then bred back to WGSL for many generations, it is still a WGSL. Friend of mine has a WGSL female that does carry the Lierbergs (Bodo, Bernd and Fin) and also Marko Cellerland (show line that is found more in working lines). It isn't uncommon to find some old show lines like Canto Wienerau and Quanto Wienerau is WL either, but it doesn't make them show lines.
 

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It would be pretty darn uncommon for a dog from many generations of WGSL to produce a black. Some of the old Kirschental dogs had WL in them and it might be possible for a dog going back on those dogs to carry the black recessive for generations and then be bred to another to produce black, but I have never seen one. The extended saddle and blanket patterned dogs aren't favored in the show ring so wouldn't be bred for by people interested in doing well in that venue.
 

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Yes. I was just using him in a WL pedigrees as an example not making a WL a show line.
 

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Actually, you know I don't believe in line designation, but I definitely consider Bernd/Bodo and Marko examples of the epitome of the breed. Excellent structure, excellent temperament, producers of excellent working traits, and capable of producing all major pigments when bred to receptive mates. They represent the standard in every aspect( to include pigment types produced) and SHOULD be a starting point for any serious breeder that cares about the complete dog. Jmho
 

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Actually, you know I don't believe in line designation, but I definitely consider Bernd/Bodo and Marko examples of the epitome of the breed. Excellent structure, excellent temperament, producers of excellent working traits, and capable of producing all major pigments when bred to receptive mates. They represent the standard in every aspect( to include pigment types produced) and SHOULD be a starting point for any serious breeder that cares about the complete dog. Jmho
but Cliff there is a line designation and that is created by and affected by the accumulation of selection priorities.

Bernd and Bodo Lierberg in my mind are still the best dogs .
My longest running pedigree , advanced over the last 35 years plus is
based on the Lierberg's and Marko - and then bringing in old herding
through OLD kirschental (racker's) and haus knufken etc etc.

you need a high powered telescope to look back into the pedigrees to see common
connections - how many generations take you back to the late 60's , before you see one

and this is true of the ASL's

the differences satisfy all the requirements necessary to fulfill the AKC CKC etc creation and naming and stud book of a new breed.

that is the problem - we essentially have 3 breeds under one name.
 

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To add in another colour, who was the SV president who said no sable dog would ever get a VA rating as long as he was president? :(
 

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Marko along with Mutz, Canto and Quanto were the four pillars of the showlines until Marko was pushed out due to his not producing the right "type". Even Mutz pretty much was very limited in his use once the Martin brothers changed the direction of the breed. Yes, Bodo and Bernd were "show lines", but they were brought forth more for their ability to work when work was actually important to the SV. Bodo was eventually sold to the US while Bernd was used by the smart breeders who actually cared about maintaining working ability. We also had Dolf, Gin, Fello and then a full brother that carries a different kennel name (Aro?). Of course you know all of this. :)
 

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To add in another colour, who was the SV president who said no sable dog would ever get a VA rating as long as he was president? :(
mmmmm --- There was one sable in an SV show that had the spectators up on their feet booing every time the judge switched him back and forth from first to second place.

"they" did not want a sable --- and he was a great looking dog and had better temperament and bite work - it could have been a positive change

Fred Lanting and the English Videx group had lots of comments on that .

the name will pop up

--- and then you have ill informed close minded people insisting on sables being washed out and should be avoided ---
sure -- if that sable is actually a black and tan genetically but so washed out (Canto) with bitch stripe and fading pigment - check the white nails --that it looks like a sable, a poorly pigmented sable at that -
 

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That was the last time period when
there was no split at the time --


when talking about show and working lines the definitive
point of separation is the Wienerau and Arminius Martin brothers
era -- forever changed with Canto.
As I have often said, it is really too bad Canto didn't die at birth like his brother instead of at 4. It sure would have been much better for the breed.
 
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