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What do you want to freeshape?

It's generally a tool used with a dog that thinks and offers behaviors.

Basically, you kind of just wait until the dog does something close to the behavior you're looking for (without any cues from you) and then you mark that behavior (click/treat). Then you wait for closer and closer approximations of the behavior you ultimately want.

THIS is a much more in-depth response (and I honestly did not read the whole thing).

Liesje on this forum uses a lot of freeshaping and has some videos of teaching her dog, Nikon, to do things via freeshaping. She's excellent at it.

I, on the other hand, do not have the patience and can't seem to stop myself from using verbal markers (both positive and negative) to guide Madix to the right behavior. I do a shaping, but not free-shaping - I think. LOL

Hope that helps at least a little.
 

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Don't have time to write anything now, but I will like this thread :)

Z-burg you always come up with the most talked about topics....
 

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I love the idea of free shaping, just wish I had the patience to try it more and have fun with it! Though we do tend to use it somewhat in agility, just with a bit more luring than is good because of time constraints at class and on the equipment...

Great cause it's all about having our dogs THINK and learn to participate in training, not have to wait and be 'corrected' to learn the right way or what we want.


This woman is amazing cause she has great timing (and no talking :) ). When she started unintentionally getting a head swipe instead of continuing with the 'bow' she immediately broke it back down to help progress.

 

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Free-shaping can be a lot of fun!

Definitely watch for clues that your dog is on the right track with the behavior you want to end with. I watched a friend free-shape and she inadvertently taught the dog to flick his ear :) He kept offering and offering this behavior, it was too cute!
 

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Cool videos ...

Yea, I'm like Falon and MRL. I don't have the patience for that lol. With Ike's fun things, it is lure -> introduce verbal/physical cue -> gradually fade the lure and modify/minimalize physical cues until the dog is under verbal control. Classical conditioning stuff. But I can definitely appreciate good clicker/marker training. It's a treat to watch for sure!
 

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Debbie Zappia does a lot of free shaping, if you ever get a chance to see one of her seminars. For me...I think it's difficult to start free shaping an older dog. I don't really have the patience for free shaping- I prefer a lure and a marker.
 

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Interesting, I've been working on an article on freeshaping and Schutzhund training. To me the "free" in freeshaping refers to two different things. First it means that you are "free" of any tool or gimmick other than your mark and your reward. No leashes or collars, no props or tools needed (unless what you are shaping is the dog interacting with a "prop" like perch training, retrieves, jump technique...). No corrective devices (not because correction is bad, but it's not part of freeshaping). The second aspect of it being "free" means that it promotes a certain learning style within the dog. The dog learns to be more "free" himself. The dog is not dependent on the handler for lures and excess cues, nor stressed or anxious because it was patterned trained and something didn't happen in the right order. The dog is more free thinking and able to try things on his own in order to find the "right" (desired) behavior that earns the reward. Pure freeshaping is really standing their and waiting for the dog to offer the behavior (or the step toward the behavior) that you want, so freeshaping = problem solving.

Freeshaping usually works well with backchaining, but you can freeshape a simple behavior and not be backchaining, and you can backchain behaviors using lure/reward or classical conditioning or escape training. The most common place I see backchaining and freeshaping used together is what people call the "purely positive" retrieve.

I like to use freeshaping across venues (obedience, agility, Schutzhund, rally....) as much as possible because I like my dog to be clear-headed and problem solving without excess help from me or conflict created by me. Some dogs take better to this training style than others. It's almost like you have to initially train the dog to understand the training style, and then you have to use it on a fairly regular basis for the dog to keep up with it. As much as I love and prefer freeshaping, I also use a LOT of lure/mark/reward type training, I use all sorts of corrections in all three phases, and I also use pressure/escape training (the latter of which I believe is much like freeshaping, a form of training I find very valuable and need my dog to understand so I make a point of using it for certain behaviors).

I think freeshaping requires a lot of patience from the handler. I believe it helps a handler become a better trainer because it forces the handler to break down behaviors in ways the dog will understand, and it places absolute importance on the timing of the mark/reward (and on the flip side, I think prong collars are a great tool and I prefer them over e-collars because it forces the handler to learn correct line handling, what type of correction is appropriate, timing of the correction, and how to use directional corrections).

What I see from my dog that I've made a much better effort at freeshaping is a dog that more clearly understands behaviors. Just because a dog DOES a behavior or a chain doesn't mean he really understands what he's doing and exactly what he needs to do to earn the reward. Also, the behaviors I've freeshaped happen to be behaviors where my dog has always been correct and consistent, haven't had to go back and fix or polish this or that because with freeshaping, you simply don't move on to the next step unless the dog is correct in the step you're on (but again, this implies some skill on the part of the handler, knowing what IS correct and how to break down these steps for the dog). Two things I'm freeshaping right now are the send out for Schutzhund and the 2x2 weave method for agility. The last thing I've freeshaped was teaching my puppy to speak/bark (that would be an example of something that is simple, not a behavior chain that is backchained, I just stand there with the reward until the dog makes a noise, then mark/reward, then after several reps of this I up the ante and wait for the dog to make a louder noise...then up the ante more until the dog must actually bark for the reward).

I guess a very simple example of freeshaping would be the A-frame. Most people would simply leash their dog, guide it over, and praise or throw a toy on the other side. Nothing wrong with that, works just fine (and with most dogs I'd probably do just the same). But say I want to "freeshape" this behavior. I take the dog free of any "hardware" and go to the area of the A-frame. This is the dog's first interaction with the A-frame, so when the dog goes over to sniff it, I mark/reward. After the dog has figured out "I'm getting rewarded for messing with this A-frame", he decides to climb it. Now I only mark and reward for climbing it. Then we progress to mark/reward for climbing up and over the other side. Then he needs to go over and back to earn a reward. At this point I should say that I use freeshaping mostly for understanding the behavior and correctness. Once the dog does the whole thing - going out, over, and back - and clearly understands that is why he's getting rewarded, I'll do something that puts the dog in a higher state of drive which increases speed. I once saw in a video clip Ellis saying that dogs don't really understand getting rewarded for a fast behavior and not getting rewarded for a correct but slow behavior and I tend to agree with this. When I want a FAST behavior, I get the dog in a higher state of drive beforehand. So anyway, back to freeshaping the A-frame. I taught a dog this way while my friends led their dogs over the A-frame by the leash and gave a toy on the other side. The result was one dog who was instantly terrified of the A-frame and refused to do it, and another dog that liked the A-frame and was willing to interact with it but didn't really understand that the behavior = go over, come back, and get reward, so he was inconsistent (stopping at the top and running back for the toy, going around it, going over it but coming back around). The issue most people have with freeshaping is that it takes a lot of time and patience at the beginning. Once it "clicks" I find that the dog really takes off and doesn't need to be cleaned up after the fact, but it can take a while to "click". So, it might take me three sessions of freeshaping to get my dog doing the A-frame but after three sessions I can heel him over, tell him "hup" without any other cue, lure, or reward present, and have him go over and back to me whereas one friend's dog won't go near it and the other friend's dog will go on it but now has tried all these wrong things and needs to be fixed for those three sessions. Again this is just supposed to be a simple example, in the grand scheme of things going over the A-frame is not a major issue or accomplishment.
 

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Very well put, Lies!

It's interesting that you compare freeshaping to escape training. I always thought there were a lot of shaping going on in the teaching of the forced retrieve.
 

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Personally I like both and think both are important. However what I see from dogs that only get escape training and some lure type training is a dog that is more reactive than proactive (I'm not talking about "reactive" like as in a sharp nervy temperament, but as far as how the dog interacts during training, a proactive dog makes things happen and problems solves almost for the sake of it). To a lot of people, that distinction doesn't matter, and to a lot of people how and what exactly the dog learns and what's doing on in his head doesn't matter either as long as the dog performs the behavior correctly for points. Again, nothing wrong with that. I'm just more of a training/learning theory nerd. How dogs and people learn is as important to me as training the dog to do a behavior.
 

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You mean reactive on the field, during a routine? Or reactive in everyday life (not behavorially - I know that's not how you are using the word), when you are just trying to teach the dogs things?
 

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The latter. I have two such dogs, complete failures with freeshaping. One is my mutt dog that is pretty low drive (enough drive for food but looses interest fast, easily distracted) and the other is my working line female GSD who is a softy. Both of these dogs have to be lured. One doesn't have the attention span for free shaping or the desire to be working with me for more than 2 seconds, and the other gets stressed when there are no obvious cues or commands. She can't really push to solve a problem whether it is positive training or pressure training. Both dogs I would say are "reactive" as far as training goes, not on the field. They learn behaviors by "reacting" to my cues, lures, tools, etc. They are less likely to "offer" or "throw" behaviors indefinitely until they figure out what earns the reward.

An easier example.... a lot of people have trouble starting the hold of the freeshaped retrieve because their dog will not interact at all with the dowel. They just sit there and wait for some cue or help from the handler. The proactive dog will nose-touch it, put their mouth on it, paw at it, etc.
 

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For something like heeling and it's various subcomponents (left turns, around turns, finish) - how much can you freeshape before you go: "Okay, kiddo, now I am going to show you how I want you to do it." It's not hard to freeshape attentive heeling (to get the dog to look up at your face while keeping pace on your left side) but not attentive heeling in the style that you necessarily want.
 

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An easier example.... a lot of people have trouble starting the hold of the freeshaped retrieve because their dog will not interact at all with the dowel. They just sit there and wait for some cue or help from the handler. The proactive dog will nose-touch it, put their mouth on it, paw at it, etc.
But don't you think a pup with the proper drive will grab it anyway - but that doesn't necessarily means he is a thinking, proactive dog. In fact, one might say he is reactive. Object in front of him -> Drive kicks him -> Bite. I mean if I wave a dowel in front of a crazy malinois pup, he is going to grab it, no doubt about that. He wants to interact with it to begin with. It's once the pup has that thing in his mouth that we got work to do.
 

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Good question, I don't typically use pure freeshaping for heeling. I use sort of a combination of methods. If I have the dog as a puppy (like Pan for example) I start by rewarding the dog for eye contact in basic position and do this for a loooong time. At the same time I have the dog move around with me basically eating out of my hand. I don't really consider this luring or freeshaping because what I aim to do is actually physically condition the dog to move with me keeping his body straight (not wrapping) and pushing up into my palm for food. Pan is six months and still all we do as far as heeling is me feeding him while he's learning to "collect" in the rear, and then doing eye contact in basic position. When he's a bit older I'll move on to a more lure/reward type method either with a ball or food or both. Nikon's heeling is more of a "bribe" type heeling where I show him his ball, then drop it, then give the command and a stiff correction if it's needed, we heel around, and when I'm satisfied I release him to go get the ball. I know a lot of people train heel completely by using a ball lure in their armpit or up by their face but that doesn't work with Nikon, he gets too obsessed with the ball and doesn't actually *learn* what Fuss means so he's flat without his ball. Instead I tease him with the reward, get it off me, and go. He's the type of dog that gets better and "punchier" with some prong pops, doesn't shut him down but gets him going so I've used that a lot with heeling. It's funny you ask about heeling because that is one area where I've tried every method under the sun for the sake of experimentation. I don't know if the dog will ever free heel to his full potential but it's been an interesting trip!
 

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But don't you think a pup with the proper drive will grab it anyway - but that doesn't necessarily means he is a thinking, proactive dog. In fact, one might say he is reactive. Object in front of him -> Drive kicks him -> Bite. I mean if I wave a dowel in front of a crazy malinois pup, he is going to grab it, no doubt about that. He wants to interact with it to begin with. It's once the pup has that thing in his mouth that we got work to do.
LOL I was thinking this as I wrote it, I was thinking about my TD's crazy Malinois. I think there is a line between being a thinking, proactive dog and a dog that is simply overloaded but it's up to the handler to know their dog and see the difference (if the difference even matters....) I guess the main difference I'd see in this example is the dog having drive FOR the object. Personally when doing retrieves I like the dowel or dumbbell to be neutral, I don't build drive for the object and if the dog shows too much excitement over the object then I back off and try something else or wear the dog down a bit before trying that exercise. Also if you are free shaping you would not wave the dowel, no extra cues or motions to entice the dog to interact, you would just hold it in front and present it. I tried to start freeshaping Pan's hold and had to quit because he looked at the dowel and SNAPPED his head back to me. We've done so much work with eye contact it was though he saw it and thought, "Ah ha! This is another trick trying to get me to look away!" (I've been reinforcing the eye contact by holding treats a centimeter off his nose and stuff like that).
 

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Hogan grabbed the DB as soon as presented. Yes, sort of reactive in that way.

But, perhaps with something less innate as biting what in front of one's mouth there would be a better example. A dog and a box for instance. Dogs who have more shaping experience may be more likely to offer you a lot of behaviors with that box. A more "reactive" dog is going to look to the handler for direction.

I use shaping for some behaviors. I use very hands on methods for others. A big time shaped dog makes me a bit crazy with all that offering. It seems strange to me somehow.
 
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