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I am kind of a Frankie fan but recently i was reading a forum with well known working line dog breeders on it. what they were saying was that he has weak nerves and is a soft dog and constantly pass on the same genetics to their pups.

I am just curious is it true, the dog in the video doesnt seem to be soft.

Would like to get any comments who is known to these lines or dog.
 

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I hope you get responses. I have an Anrebri grandson, would be interested in hearing
 

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I will comment that I have next to no experience in the sport so really have no valid knowledge backing up my opinions, but I guess I don't necessarily like either his reactions with/around the handler or how she is handling him between the bites?
 

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I will give an answer based on having seen over seventy Franki grandchildren. As matter of fact, I just arranged for a Frankie grandson that I picked out to be sent to Tennesse last week for SAR, herding, and primarily family. The dog bounded out the crate when it arrived and the lady has let me know that they she has never had puppy this sound and fun.
Now to Frankie, he is a dog of superb structure and consistently passes this with good females. He possessed good temperament, and passed it also. He was not what we call a hard dog and is not known for producing hardness. But he isn't a drag on temperament either. I have seen his son bred to 4different females. With harder females( genetically), he has had some very tough dogs, with solid females, superb family and working dogs, with higher drive dogs, good drive. He is not a dog to go to for a potential national Sch champion. But when bred to mt Tom z PS daughter, his son produced definite police candidates.
Overall, Frankie is a very nice dog, who is sought out more for structure than sport. The majority of the people on a working forum have and are looking for that upper 10% of hardness in GS. These are not pet people in how they see dogs though their dogs may well be pets. These people want a harder type than Frankie produces unless he is bred with a perfect compliment....and they are few and far between.
So in conclusion, I find Frankie an excellent dog and producer for 90% of the German Shepherd owners, and I can live with those percentage anytime:).
Hope this helps, I only commented this much because I have extensive hands on knowledge of his progeny to come to my conclusions....Take care.
 

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Btw, the video is of Renata taking him up for his Korung,(breed survey), as Frankie is a very highly rated V dog in structure. He has many V rated progeny also....a very good dog to be given a VA rating at a Seiger show for infusion of new genetics. Compare his work in the Korung to many of the Seiger show work which is very similar....very few VA dogs look like that.
 

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Thanks Cliff!

I've heard more criticism of Francesco's temperament/nerves than Frankie's, but I hadn't heard specific info on Frankie.

I have a pup out of a Frankie daughter right now, and she's just a super pup--really like almost everything about her. Not a high-level sport dog--just a super-nice, versatile pup who could probably go into just about any activity and do well in almost any working arena.
 

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I will comment that I have next to no experience in the sport so really have no valid knowledge backing up my opinions, but I guess I don't necessarily like either his reactions with/around the handler or how she is handling him between the bites?
That's just how they handle for their breed surveys. I don't like it either, but it's certainly not unique to this dog/handler.
 

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I have virtually no experience compared to Cliff or Christine but what I have seen is, what Frankie produced depended greatly on the female he was bred to. I have seem some of his progeny that was fantastic and others that for lack of a better word, were lazy. Personally I love Frankie. He is behind my dog as well. But like I said just from what I have seen it was hit or miss on what he produced.
 

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None of the utube videos of Frankie's progeny show any son to be better or as good as he was. Of course, the best ones may not be on utube but one would think that a kennel would show their best.

Probably deserves another thread but I can think of many famous studs who probably never produced a son better than them. Asko Lutter? Tom Leefdalhof? (before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, these dogs produced many many good to great dogs just none better than the original, perhaps one can even say that of Bernd and Bodo Lierberg)
On the other hand, you have the case of Fero and Mink who produced many sons, grandsons, great grandsons considered better than them.
 

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None of the utube videos of Frankie's progeny show any son to be better or as good as he was. Of course, the best ones may not be on utube but one would think that a kennel would show their best.

Probably deserves another thread but I can think of many famous studs who probably never produced a son better than them. Asko Lutter? Tom Leefdalhof? (before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, these dogs produced many many good to great dogs just none better than the original, perhaps one can even say that of Bernd and Bodo Lierberg)
On the other hand, you have the case of Fero and Mink who produced many sons, grandsons, great grandsons considered better than them.

Short of the 1 in 1,000 dogs that do come up, is it possible for a dog to produce better than itself? I was always told you have to breed the "extremes" because by the time the genes are passed down they are watered down. This is an honest question, not being a smart a--.
 

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That's an interesting question.
What I've seen more often is breeding of very hard dogs to females that are not as hard but have better conformation and balanced temperaments. Fero and Mink being classic examples of dogs with a reputation as extremely hard but somewhat ugly and not totally balanced dogs.
Cliff's examples of Frankie perhaps the opposite; of breeding a "conformation" male to females from harder lines.
How about breeding a perfectly balanced male to a perfectly balanced female? Would that water down the breed?
 

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That's an interesting question.
What I've seen more often is breeding of very hard dogs to females that are not as hard but have better conformation and balanced temperaments. Fero and Mink being classic examples of dogs with a reputation as extremely hard but somewhat ugly and not totally balanced dogs.
Cliff's examples of Frankie perhaps the opposite; of breeding a "conformation" male to females from harder lines.
How about breeding a perfectly balanced male to a perfectly balanced female? Would that water down the breed?

In your first scenario, that's kind of the same thought as "extremes" right? Breeding a hard ugly dog to a pretty dog to try and balance out the progeny. Makes perfect sense.

Breeding balance to balance, I don't know. Would the balance pass down or would it be a wash? I guess it still depends on the dogs themselves and how strong they produce themselves. Now my brain is going like crazy haha.
 

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Breeding a hard ugly dog to a pretty dog to try and balance out the progeny. Makes perfect sense.
might make sense but in my reading of genetics it is pre-mendelian and incorrect. people used to believe in blending theory where you kinds get an average of the parents/forefathers. it is false as simple punnet squares would show. i have never bred a gsd.

structure aside which is the big plus for this dog what makes dog special from that vid - the whole lifting the dog in with it's front legs off the ground is what i would expect to see in the crudest of dog training circles, implies lack of control or the dog would be out of control if the handler wasn't physically manipulating it, what gives?? and from the vid alone what bestows this dog such a great example of the breed???

honest questions based on the vid alone.
 

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structure aside which is the big plus for this dog what makes dog special from that vid - the whole lifting the dog in with it's front legs off the ground is what i would expect to see in the crudest of dog training circles, implies lack of control or the dog would be out of control if the handler wasn't physically manipulating it, what gives?? and from the vid alone what bestows this dog such a great example of the breed???

honest questions based on the vid alone.

I have seen comments like this a lot about the Czech breed survey. This is not about the robotic training that schutzhund is today but about the qualities of the dog. This video is a very small portion of the zvv titles.
 

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i could not find to many other videos of the dog, quite common with some big name dogs, see a trial highlights/best of and thats the basis for the legend + a great ped to start a legion of adoring fans all around the world mostly of folks that have only ever seen the same vid?

and lets face it when it comes down to a difference of 1 or 2 points difference between high points dogs alldoing the same routine eg schuts they all pretty much look the same.

so is it just inside information and chinese whispers that makes one dog an international rock star type and another dog just a great dog that did well at trials.

trying to learn here.
 

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structure aside which is the big plus for this dog what makes dog special from that vid - the whole lifting the dog in with it's front legs off the ground is what i would expect to see in the crudest of dog training circles, implies lack of control or the dog would be out of control if the handler wasn't physically manipulating it, what gives?? and from the vid alone what bestows this dog such a great example of the breed???
Like I said, that's just how the breed surveys are done there. You'd probably have to ask someone from that country/kennel club why the dogs are presented that way. They are not presented like that here or in Germany.

This is how it is done here (just a random grab from "breed survey" on YouTube, looks like Frank and Cayos)
 

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send me three of them now thanks, where is the mic positioned??? if it is off fleld with the camera that is one quality pick up.


for second there at the start of the vid i thouht the dog was on a flexi, maybe my eyes just wanted to see a flexi.

ped?

thanks for link.
 

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Nope, you come up on lead, heel from the first flag to the second flag on lead, then take the lead off (not sure why it has to be on at all). Once the lead is off the judge waves and you heel towards a blind. There's a helper in the blind and once you heel a certain distance the helper will attack (supposed to charge straight at the handler but these days they often do these silly backup style bites or run sideways presenting the sleeve, like a crab). The dog attacks on his own, bites, out command, then you walk up and pickup the dog (sit and heel away). You heel downfield and hold the dog's collar. Helper charges out of the blind downfield, dog does a long bite, outs on command, and you pickup the dog (sit, heel away under control). Very abbreviated test, mostly looking to see that the dog will engage under what has become a relatively minimal amount of threat (though it depends on who's judging and who's doing the helperwork) and the dog will out on command. Breed survey is not meant to distinguish the best of the best biting dogs, though usually those dogs stand out :)
 

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stood out for me, i liked the dog. seems unfair that a dog will be rated when the amount of pressure depends on the decoy? level playing field?

can you supply more info on the dog, i would do the bad thing and buy him just off the internet.
 
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