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Would any of you purposefully flank a dog hard with a whip during training if you were the decoy?

How about if you were testing the dog after years of no bite training?

I was shown a video that is confusing and disturbing to me. I'd like your opinions.

Thanks,

David
 

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Is the video available to view.
 

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Flanking a dog that has not been involved in bitework for many years is unjustified. I would think the decoy would have tapped into the prey drive first....and then maybe add some pressure depending on how the dog responded. Was this for the decoy's ego? To set the dog up to fail? It makes no sense, IMO to use whip that close 'as a test'
 

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Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.
 

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Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.
No need to expound. I was a trainer at VLK. Just looking for opinions considering these particular circumstances.

Dog is 7. Hasn't done any serious bite training since he was 2. The decoy flanked the dog with a whip pretty hard 30 seconds into his first season in 5 years.

I just can't think of a reason to do this other than to make the dog look bad.
 

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Flanking a dog that has not been involved in bitework for many years is unjustified. I would think the decoy would have tapped into the prey drive first....and then maybe add some pressure depending on how the dog responded. Was this for the decoy's ego? To set the dog up to fail? It makes no sense, IMO to use whip that close 'as a test'
Your thoughts mirror mine. I just can't think of a reason to do this other than to make the dog look bad.

I agree that adding pressure to the dog is fine. If you end up with a real fight, so be it, but there is no need to take it there right from the get go unless you're testing a dog you are going to purchase and put on the street.
 
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I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.
 

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I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.
I saw the video….dog did not leave or try to get away, but was very confused as to what the helper was doing. His fight drive did not kick in, and the helper then kept putting a bite pillow in front of him, pulling it away, teasing(not prey movement)but never letting him have a bite. Instead he kept cracking the whip. It was a very unfair session for the dog for his first time out in years. Give him a bite to remind him....then that fight drive may have kicked in instead of confusing the dog.
 

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I guess a lot of what ~we~ do, is dependant on the individual dog. And the reason for the dog being in front of a decoy. I for some reason picturing the dog leaving the helper and the helper reminding the dog what they're doing. As far as how that was accomplished would be dependant on the circumstances and the individual dog. Sometimes just a "HEY" is all that the dog needs. Sometimes more. Sport dog, PP, LE what is the dog being worked for.
I understand this totally as the handler, but not as the decoy.
 

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Yes, depending on the circumstance and the dog there may be a time and place for this. Pet dogs no. But with LE K9’s there may be a certain situation where this game s practical and necessary. I am not going to get into too much detail on a public forum, I would expound in a private conversation.
I agree! Pet dog, no! But true w9rking dog....there are times it is best option. Still, it should only be done by a trainer who has years of reading and training dogs.
 

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I’m confused on what you mean by flanking with the whip. I apparently use flanking in a different way. My method doesn’t involve a whip or stick.
The decoy hit the dog in the flank, side of the belly, with the whip 20 seconds into its first training session in 5 years.
 

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The decoy hit the dog in the flank, side of the belly, with the whip 20 seconds into its first training session in 5 years.

Gotchya. Honestly, I can't speak in generalities with it. Would I do it? It really depends on the dog and how it was trained originally. Some dogs can come out swinging after years off, and some not so much. Some dogs are super strong, and thrive off stuff like that, and some don't. So it really comes down to the individual dog and training session. It sounds like from those of you who have seen the video, that this dog was not ready for that. But to ask would I ever? Sure, depending on the dog.
 

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Either the dog doesn't have it in him and/or the helper lacks skill and presence.
 
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For me it is the doing the flanking on the first session after several years of no training. Sounds like it was more about the decoy's ego than what was best for evaluating or training the dog. Was there a possibility the dog would be put back into service?
 

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Would any of you purposefully flank a dog hard with a whip during training if you were the decoy?

How about if you were testing the dog after years of no bite training?

I was shown a video that is confusing and disturbing to me. I'd like your opinions.

Thanks,

David
Why would you flank any dog period?
Doug
 
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