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Discussion Starter #2
aw come on guys someone can give a short critique on where the dog is at in the drive/grip?
 

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Seriously out if my depth here. But I will tell what I saw.

The dog has very nice focus, good drive, nice attention and a solid cap on all of it.

I would not be putting that much control on a basic prey excersise.

His bites tend to start shallow. When the helper does get him to readjust, he does not get rewarded with a win. The fight goes on too long and the grip suffers again.

Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. I am a bit out if my expertise(if I have any at all) with bite work.


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Discussion Starter #4
thanks for review, he can bite shallow at times unfortunately, i have been working him in prey to promote a deepr grip altho imo the grips in the vid were quite full most of the time but yes that is a current training issue so good call. he also growls on the sleeve which i know most don't like as they think it is nerve problems?

thanks for comments.
 

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Tapping into SAR training, which actually has some similarities to basic prey bite work, the growling us a sign if an unsure dog.

If your boy is growling/talking on the sleeve, I bet it's because he does not understand what gets him the win. If your helper can be diligent about rewarding quickly for the full bite that should dissipate.

Let him prance around with his "trophy" then the helper can grab the handle and re-engage. Get the full bite and let him win again.


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OK I'll give it a try....first, I think you might still want more prey. The grip is shallow, looks like he kind of shifts around at times, and there's a lot of growling. The helper is sort of tugging backward but stays locked up with the dog being pulled into him close which might be causing the growling. The mini escape bites I can't really see what the helper is doing beforehand but if you want more prey, the helper should be making prey. It looks more like just sending for bites and then tugging with the sleeve but fairly confrontational tugging. Obviously I can't *feel* the dog but the helper should respond accordingly to the dog. I think there needs to be more prey work in general, not just making it *object* oriented (tugging and possessing the sleeve). I think if you get more prey and more power from the prey the shallow bite problem will correct itself. I guess my question is how is this different from the other work and what makes it more prey?

Here are a few of my show line dog being worked more in prey (he's seen a lot of defense so we're trying to balance him out a bit). This is by no means a gold standard and we are also working on some other things I won't get into here, but you can see the sorts of things the helpers were doing to get more prey (helper is moving around, giving misses, more reactive with the sleeve once the dog bites, lets the dog take him down, sleeve is to the side and not pulled into his chest)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyLlQPUX9aU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kaq3B-cKAr0


(ETA: This is the same dog doing more defensive type exercises, so you can see/hear the difference in the barking and biting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io8W7EkaCwU )
 

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Discussion Starter #7
yeah unfortunately my decoys are not into the whole moving around thing, pretty much stand their stalking and staring down stink eye, yelling at the dog, claw hands in the face, full frontal posture and walk straight into the dog and it bites or runs. i have had a eval/fun session with a schuts decoy who did all that movement stuff, lateral run by's, misses etc and the went into a high state of prey drive, but tht decoy is not readily available.


"I guess my question is how is this different from the other work and what makes it more prey?"

my idea was less confrontation from the decoy, more distance, and the dog has to cover ground to get him/ chase but then again there is no chase just a decoy standing full frontal...sigh.

thanks for comment.
 

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Do you do any barking at all? Not just obedience and biting? I'm new at this but it's hard for me to get a read on the dog and the helper when it's just setting up mini escape bites. I think your dog has a lot more potential than what is demonstrated in the video.
 

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I do not know what your goals are, but either way I can say I like your dog, but I don't like the work.

I do IPO, but I enjoy doing other stuff sometimes. Suit work, fence or car guarding, etc. Either just for fun or because I know my dog has the potential for PP and I need one. Yet, I sorry to say this because I know this was not the intention of your post, I wouldn't let your helper near my dog, because of many reasons.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Lies had time to have a better look at yr links in more detail, if yr intention was to show a full grip then YES VERY NICE but if yr intention was to show drive and intent from the dog then i don't get it.

the decoy to me was highly inoffensive and his gentle kind of ballerina like moves seemed to just be just enticing encouraging the dog onto a bite who prolly in my reading would have been just as happy some place else but is trained well enough to know that his mouth on the sleeve is the only way out of this, when he got the sleeve (slipped) he ambled around like an old house dog in the carry but with a full nice grip but if that decoy came back on him my guess the dog would have walked up for a pat?? in comparison my boy will frantically mash & dissect a slipped sleeve and bite (albeit shallower) to try maim any part of the decoy that comes back on him.

the dog entry into the barn was the least convincing even less so than the "look" of the dog in the blind where his eyes were bugging of his head. i actually thought the dog was going to not enter, is it yr barn or a strange one to the dog??

the decoy in the blind shoved his butt forward in the dogs face when turning to fix the blind is when if the dog was serious would have nailed him reflexively. thats just my reading and learning to read dogs is what i love to learn so please refute as you see fit.

i will construct a barn type scenario indoors at some place the dog has never seen to show YOU what i think drive and aggression looks like, my guess is you will see a dog at straining desperately at the end of the leash to go in and that camera person would have been taken out first on the way to the decoy who would not have had to get his attention, the dog would have found him. just my guess but now i guess i have to prove it.

if yr intention was just to show a full grip then you definitely achieved it and disregard the rest of this post. but if it was to show an example of drive and aggression, happy to stick with what i got thanks.

thanks for comment.


OK I'll give it a try....first, I think you might still want more prey. The grip is shallow, looks like he kind of shifts around at times, and there's a lot of growling. The helper is sort of tugging backward but stays locked up with the dog being pulled into him close which might be causing the growling. The mini escape bites I can't really see what the helper is doing beforehand but if you want more prey, the helper should be making prey. It looks more like just sending for bites and then tugging with the sleeve but fairly confrontational tugging. Obviously I can't *feel* the dog but the helper should respond accordingly to the dog. I think there needs to be more prey work in general, not just making it *object* oriented (tugging and possessing the sleeve). I think if you get more prey and more power from the prey the shallow bite problem will correct itself. I guess my question is how is this different from the other work and what makes it more prey?

Here are a few of my show line dog being worked more in prey (he's seen a lot of defense so we're trying to balance him out a bit). This is by no means a gold standard and we are also working on some other things I won't get into here, but you can see the sorts of things the helpers were doing to get more prey (helper is moving around, giving misses, more reactive with the sleeve once the dog bites, lets the dog take him down, sleeve is to the side and not pulled into his chest)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyLlQPUX9aU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kaq3B-cKAr0


(ETA: This is the same dog doing more defensive type exercises, so you can see/hear the difference in the barking and biting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io8W7EkaCwU )
 

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Discussion Starter #12
because of many reasons.

thanks for comment, its the detail in the "many reasons" that helps others learn otherwise it is just a mysterious statement. if you want to expand i will thank you again.
 

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X11 I strongly suggest you read some books on training theory, drive theories and protection work. I don't feel you have an understanding of what's happening or the intent of what decoys are doing. In Lies videos, she was showing you what prey work looks like. Those ballerina type movements you didn't like was the dicey working the the dog in prey. Prey has no or very little threat to it. I don't know if her dog is a "real" do or not but that's irrelevant to what she was trying to show you. When I can get to my computer I will try and send you some quick reads on decoy theory.


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LOL x11 I think you have it backwards. My dog often does NOT grip full though the more balanced work he sees and the better I cap his drive, the more gull the grip. The videos of your dog are IMO not showing a full grip at all, and since you brought up prey we're trying to point out how you can achieve that.

I do not allow my dog to attack people with cameras or drag me around, even in protection. In the barn video I tell the dog to alert. It was not a search exercise. The dogs aren't dumb, they always know where the helper is. :)

I guess I was mistaken in thinking you wanted to bring more balance and prey to your dog's work but based on your response you want a highly reactive level of defense. This is not a contest to see whose dog is more "real", we're talking about prey work. I don't see where in your videos your helper is doing any prey work at all.
 

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LOL x11 I think you have it backwards. My dog often does NOT grip full though the more balanced work he sees and the better I cap his drive, the more gull the grip. The videos of your dog are IMO not showing a full grip at all, and since you brought up prey we're trying to point out how you can achieve that.

I do not allow my dog to attack people with cameras or drag me around, even in protection. In the barn video I tell the dog to alert. It was not a search exercise. The dogs aren't dumb, they always know where the helper is. :)

I guess I was mistaken in thinking you wanted to bring more balance and prey to your dog's work but based on your response you want a highly reactive level of defense. This is not a contest to see whose dog is more "real", we're talking about prey work. I don't see where in your videos your helper is doing any prey work at all.
Can you explain the bolded? I watched your videos, I am still pretty green at SchH training. Are you in SchH or PPD(I think that's the personal protection acrynom, forgive me if not)? I am just curious and trying to learn more. :)

X11, to me, the beauty of SchH, protection, and really bitework in general, is the complete control of the dog, the calm carry, the "calm" bark and hold, and the ability to switch from prey to defense naturally and "calmly" (as calm as it gets in bitework, of course NOT talking about dullness). I would never want a nervy, crazy dog, that bites anything that comes near it, especially a decoy/helper with it's back turned. That isn't drive to me or "natural", that's oral fixating, no cap, and maybe some nerviness, conflict, and confusion....no outlet for stress, so dog bites closest thing. Nope. Not for me, and I do NOT think that is what a balanced GSD doing bitework looks like ;-). Just my noob, humble, opinion, nice pup Lies! Any more videos of him working with more pressure?? Trying to train my eye more when it comes to grips, changes in barking, etc... :)
 

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X11, can your dog do a bark and hold? Without you holding him back?
 

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Dani, I do mostly SchH but also some cross type training for SDA. Right now I am focusing on finishing the remaining SchH titles and then continuing with SDA titles. The exercises are very different but I approach the training the same way.

My dog tends to work more in defense, at least that his his primary drive. Dogs that bite in prey typically bite full but sometimes won't stay there. My dog has seen a lot of defense work and some at an earlier age so right now I'm trying to balance him out and bring more prey to the work so that he bites with more speed and more full (I already know he won't be chewy, doesn't flinch during drives, doesn't leave the blind, etc), work on switching drives seamlessly back and forth during a training session, and in general cap him in a higher state of drive. Every dog is different, that's just what my dog needs right now to achieve the goals we want and present the picture I'm aiming for. The videos were just in response to x11, they are not recent (one over a year old) and aren't really indicative of our current training.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
thanks myo, will print them off, there is a gap between what i read tho and my current resources ie finding the support that will do it in a manner typically thought more highly of here, no real choice but to work within yr resources.
 

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thanks myo, will print them off, there is a gap between what i read tho and my current resources ie finding the support that will do it in a manner typically thought more highly of here, no real choice but to work within yr resources.
True but remember, no training is better than bad training. All in all, nice dog. He has tons of potential. I would love to see him work on decoys that can bring it out.
 
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