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Hey folks - this is more for me to vent than anything, but, I figured maybe it could spark someone else to not have the same problem we do - so worth the effort in that regard.

We were loosely looking for a new pup. Not really breed specific, but we did tend to be leaning towards GSD's. Again, just a family member - not planning to train for IPO, etc. We, honestly, did not even want to go with a pure bred - but a local post happened to show up with a few GSD pups, and we took interest. Long story short, we checked out the pup, mom, dad, litter mates and did some basic background work on the owners and mom/dad. All seemed on the up and up and we took home who eventually would become named "Nash". (I referred to him as "Mr Brown Legs" until we come up with the name that fit him.)

Again, we are not pro's, we are not trainers, we are not breeders...we're just a couple with room for a new pup. We did raise a beautiful Bloodhound "Beau" from 3 months to 11 years, and have had dogs in our lives constantly. So, not completely unaware, just a normal couple with a pup. Anywho - we pick up Nash Dec 1. He's been outside or in an unheated garage w/ Mom/Dad and the siblings. Perfectly fine, and not really anything to do with the displeasure - just explaining the situation. Naturally, he's a filthy thing when we meet him - but, after seeing the temperament and behaviors of mom and dad as well as him and the litter mates - we agree to a (what I consider fairly good) price, and take him.

It was below freezing that day, and we were cold so cranked up the heat in the car. After a few mins of lots of heat and curvy roads, we had a sick pup. He never vomited but hacked a couple of times... we pulled over, cooled things off and gave him a chance to recover. He did so fairly quickly, and we were off again - he was fine henceforth. We decided to stop at Petsmart on the way home and let him get primped up since he was semi-filthy (it was a wet and rainy/snowy day). According to the groomers, he did great. We loaded up and went home. All is well. (and still is - this isn't one of "those" stories just to be clear)

He does all of the normal pup things, except he is burning up. And I don't mean excited panting, or puppy exuberance - I mean this pup is flat out roasting at 70 degrees. He loves it outside, and then we have that "doh" moment. He has NEVER been inside. The last couple of weeks have been very very cold. He's acclimated to freezing outdoor temps, and we have him inside. So we believe hes just too hot.

We let Beau sleep on the bed...and with a pup, sure it's a risk - but we are going to take that risk and just start how we want his lifestyle to be and train our way though the rough spots. So, we let him on the bed for bedtime. We cooled down the temp to about 68 and turn on a fan (which is normal for me anyway). He gets hotter and hotter. We turn on the ceiling fan. He's still getting hotter. Finally, his breathing is so rapid I begin to think something is badly wrong. It was over 100 breaths per min, totally resting. I get him up and we go outside, he's acting perfectly fine. Come back in and all is seems well. He's cooled down and even when hot a happy pup. Long story short with this -- we have been freezing our tails off inside since then to help let him acclimate to being inside. He is slowly starting to handle it better, but we still do lots of window opening / fan running / etc. Like 64 degrees in the living room cool... brrrrrrrr.

Now for the displeasure --- I looked over the papers we had for his shots, and I noticed only one round. But one of the owners said they took him to a different town than what the papers had - so I assumed they just didn't give us all of the shot records. No biggie. I'll call the vet and see what they have, and if not - call the "breeders" and get the name of the other vet. I use "breeders" loosely as I don't consider them actual breeders, rather folks with dogs who bred. So, I call the vet. Nope. Only one round. 10/10. Missing 10/31 and 11/28 shots. Contact breeders to find the other vet. "Oh sorry, we missed the second round..." and begins to explain how and why they forgot etc.

Immediately I get very unhappy. Not rude, but very upset. We've had the pup for 5 days, have introduced him to people with dogs and worst of all, to the groomers in Petsmart. All with shots from 10/10 which at this point are basically useless. I could have tolerated being behind on shots - but you have to freaking tell me that! Zero chance I would have ever taken him into Petsmart being behind two rounds of shots!

Breeders first response when I called him out on the shots... "Well bring him back and we will give you a refund." OH HECK NO, you are not getting NASH!

Now to be fair to the "breeders" they have agreed to cover the cost of all 3 rounds which should have happened... we just have to hope he didn't pick up anything recently. Yeah... lesson learned with a local buy from a local guy...
 

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I'm sorry, but even with two to three rounds of shots (which is over vaccinating by the way, 3week intervals is norm) I would not take my dog into Petsmart, let alone to be groomed! Even at the vet, dog is carried in, never touches the floor and a clean sterile towel is laid on the exam table (if needed) until final round of puppy shots at 16/17wks...

You expect breeder level of care and monetary expenditure (breeders spend alot on their program and animals because it is for the betterment of the breed) but also say that you don't call them breeders just people who put two dogs together... I don't mean to be harsh, but I think your expectations are a bit sideways...
 

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At his age, they definitely should have given him the correct amount of shots. He also could have been experiencing a mild fever.

I got my pup at 7 weeks (too early to leave mom), and didn't have the first set of shots until about 8 weeks old. She was being contained in an outside kennel in the dirt and was covered in flees. She also still had moms "juice" on her dried up from giving birth; (which was kind of nasty to see at 7 weeks old). Right off the bat, I knew the breeders didn't really care about her, they were just trying to sell her off.

First thing I did was take her home, give her a bath to remove any flees from her fur, and start her on fresh water for 2-3 hours before a first meal. First meal was a very small portion of grain free canned food, because I wanted her to poop out everything the breeder was feeding her first, so I can have a fresh start with her. She automatically loved me after that first bath because those flees were no longer biting at her skin. It's been a loving bond ever since.

Technically she was due for a 2nd set of shots 2 weeks ago and I haven't done it yet. But her health is still 100% with plenty of energy.
 

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I had the same problem when my room mate found a GSD that had obviously been dumped. It was February, and when she came inside, the inside of her ears would get very pink as she tried to vent heat. She had obviously been kept in an outdoor kennel.

I wouldn't worry about the panting, it's perfectly normal. But a good breeder usually does NOT keep pups outside in the winter!
 

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At his age, they definitely should have given him the correct amount of shots. He also could have been experiencing a mild fever.

I got my pup at 7 weeks (too early to leave mom), and didn't have the first set of shots until about 8 weeks old. She was being contained in an outside kennel in the dirt and was covered in flees. She also still had moms "juice" on her dried up from giving birth; (which was kind of nasty to see at 7 weeks old). Right off the bat, I knew the breeders didn't really care about her, they were just trying to sell her off.

First thing I did was take her home, give her a bath to remove any flees from her fur, and start her on fresh water for 2-3 hours before a first meal. First meal was a very small portion of grain free canned food, because I wanted her to poop out everything the breeder was feeding her first, so I can have a fresh start with her. She automatically loved me after that first bath because those flees were no longer biting at her skin. It's been a loving bond ever since.

Technically she was due for a 2nd set of shots 2 weeks ago and I haven't done it yet. But her health is still 100% with plenty of energy.
Someone correct if I got this wrong, but shots given earlier to eight weeks of age may provide little to no protection due to the dams antibodies. I would not delay getting the series of shots on schedule any further, it's not worth taking the risk.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I'm sorry, but even with two to three rounds of shots (which is over vaccinating by the way, 3week intervals is norm) I would not take my dog into Petsmart, let alone to be groomed! Even at the vet, dog is carried in, never touches the floor and a clean sterile towel is laid on the exam table (if needed) until final round of puppy shots at 16/17wks...

You expect breeder level of care and monetary expenditure (breeders spend alot on their program and animals because it is for the betterment of the breed) but also say that you don't call them breeders just people who put two dogs together... I don't mean to be harsh, but I think your expectations are a bit sideways...

I you may have misunderstood the situation, Hieni7. Pup was born 8/19/18. First round of shots on 10/10, second was to be 10/31 (Missed) third was to be 11/28 (Also Missed). I really do not think it is at all too much of an expectation for someone breeding and selling pups to A: Get their basic shots and most certainly to B: be honest about what they have done. It's not even that he was behind on his shots that has me so flustered, it's that they flat out lied about them. I do not think this is even remotely close to expecting breeder level of care. I'm not upset that he was outside, or dirty or any of that. My discontentment comes from the lie.



I'm personally not anti-petsmart, but I get why some are. The pup was filthy, needed a bath, and we needed to pick up a few things so it was a win-win to get him washed up ASAP. However, had I known that he had only had the round of shots on 10/10 there is no chance we would have taken him in. Zero.




None the less, we are going Saturday to start over on the vaccines and hes starting to acclimate to the inside, which is good. He's a quick study, and seems to be adjusting to tons of human contact fantastically. I just really hope we have not picked something up along the way...
 

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I did not know the age... The reason a series of shots occurs is because we don't know when the moms antibodies stop being effective in the pup. At 16wks of age you do not need to redo series of shots. One set and a booster at a year of age will do.

Petsmart comment is not about the company but the amount of dogs and potential diseases that a pup can get... I am less worried after 16wks and last puppy shot (or first if none were given prior) but am still very cautious... And my dogs are SAR dogs and subjected to all sorts of things... Obviously you can't protect them from everything, nor should we, but mitigating the chances of something big when they are very young is wise.

I can understand being upset about a lie..that is not cool . But as I stated before, buying from a byb and expecting more is odd. You don't even call them a breeder yourself. Also, as a repeat, the need for a series of puppy shots should not be necessary as by 16wks moms antibodies are put of his system and the vaccine should be effective.

Nash should adjust to the house temps and if healthy, should not get as hot as he has been. Of course, if he has a sense xoaty, he may always like the cooler temps... Congrats on your new boy. Enjoy him, pics would be great ?
 

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Pup was born 8/19/18. First round of shots on 10/10, second was to be 10/31 (Missed) third was to be 11/28 (Also Missed). .
Pup was born on 8/19.

First shot 8 weeks: 10/14
Second Shot 12 weeks: 11/11
Third shot 16 weeks: 12/09

Mother's immunity starts to wear off at 8 weeks and up. Per my vet, they are usually gone by 12 weeks. The puppy series is trying to hit that window and to build immunity. Your puppy could get one shot now and then do a 3rd in 3-4 weeks. That would complete the series and only be a couple of weeks off the schedule.

You can be angry but some of that anger needs to be directed inwards. You bought from a backyard breeder. The fact that they offered you a refund and offered to pay all the shots is more than 99.9% of them would do.

Move on. Pay for the shots and vet care and enjoy your puppy.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Not the best pics, but here's a couple.
20181204_123917_1544149860246.jpg 20181204_150950_1544149990444.jpg

He's a crazy thing, lol. He's acclimating a bit to inside temps (as are we, as its 64 in the living room right now lol). I really hope he begins to like warmer temps lol.
 

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Let me add this to the mix on vaccinations ----- Generally 2 weeks after the final round of PARVO shots, it is safe to take the pup out and about. People forget that vaccinations are not immediately effective.



Get your new, very cute, very charming but likes it cold, guy to your vet for a check up. Do not let him walk into the office. Carry him in.


In the meantime, get out your long underwear and wool sweaters.....



Hope pup is healthy and hardy and continues to be a joy. And that the humans and dog find a temperature that they are both happy with. At the same time.
 

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Sounds like you ended up with a BYB. I’m not sure your source, or price point, but you didn’t mention lines or health certifications, nor a contract which are basic stipulations reputable breeders provide. I’m not judging, as we’ve all been there, but it’s kind of like going to McDonald’s and being surprised your order didn’t come out 100%. There’s going to be risks and things (like missing shots) that come with the territory.

I have three dogs. One is a ten year old pit bull with a very thin short coat. The other is a two year old dobe gsd mix who has a blend, it’s a double coat but thinner and shorter than a pure gsd. My puppy who is now five months old, has a very thick and full stock coat. Our temps are in the 40s and 30s, some 20s he absolutely thrives in it. We got him at nine weeks old in late August and he was uncomfortable even in 70 degree weather, not overly so but noticeably so. You mentioned you previously had a Bloodhound, I’ve also only had short haired dogs til now and the way they handle the weather is very different.

Your pup is adorable and I love his name. Please stick around and post more pictures :)
 

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Oh how it helps to vent!!

I have been in your situation before and have learned some lessons. No matter what the promise or what they guarantee it's only as good as the breeder themselves, and a warranty is worth as about as much as the paper it's written on.

I also learned i have a part to play in it as well. I didn't have to accept the puppy. I could forfeit my deposit and move on, but i had waited so long and needed to start training as my service dog asap, so i took her. I have worked with many excellent breeders in Germany this was my first AKC breeder i have worked with and i learned some valuable lessons...Most importantly, next time I'll visit the breeder BEFORE i place a deposit.

That said. It seems you and i have been blessed. Your puppy looks healthy and happy. My little girl is healthy and happy. Enjoy your new baby! That's what i am doing and only taking a lesson learned with me.
 

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Kind of hitting a few different points from the comments.

First off - 100% BYB. I'm not embarrassed to admit it, hence the "breeders" in quotes and lower expectations from them. He does have his AKC registration, sire is a son of a show dog (supposedly), mom has no specific lines that I am aware of. And that is all fine, I was not interested in tracing lineage or anything. We were not looking for a show dog, or true working dog etc. We are looking for a pet, who we can work with, have fun with, etc. He will not be bred. I know a lot of folks here are working with specific lines for specific results, and I understand the reasons behind it, however, it was not something we "needed". In fact, and I may or may not have mentioned it, we were not even looking for a full bred dog. We wanted a mixed breed. It's just happenstance that we ended up with a full bred.

I knew going in we were not going to be getting the best of the best situation from the "breeders"...but, I did expect basic honesty on something as specific and obvious as his shots, lol. Even they, the breeders, agree. They have since apologized profusely, made some excuses (half of which I do believe). Husbands dogs really, but has been out of town working for the last few months only back on the weekends. He thought wife did the second round and she didn't realize she needed to (also has a 1 yr old so I can see there being enough distraction there lol). He told us the pups were coming up on their next round of shots, from time of initial contact to seeing Nash we overlapped the 11/28 date. So, part of the problem was we were just all on different pages. And like I mentioned earlier, after talking with them, they have offered to cover all of the basic shots which they had scheduled including the 11/28 round. We are headed to the Vet Saturday and will talk through all of the specifics of the vaccinations, and go from there. I'm over the angry stage, but wanted to share the experience in the hopes if someone else is looking to just pick up a pup and happen hop on here, they don't make the same causal mistakes we did.

I should say the breeders are quite nice folks, and that made it worse when things were not going so well. But, I cannot ask for more than them owning the mistake and doing what they can to remedy it. He even offered to buy the dog back, to which he got an "Oh heck no!". I'm not even upset that they messed up on the shots, I was upset that we were misled. BUT - they have accepted responsibility, and offered resolution. I'm still a little aggravated, but it's not the end of the world...as long as Nash is still as healthy as he seems - that's all I really care about.

Temperature: LOL - yeah, he is the exact opposite of Beau. He loved it hot. He loved it indoors. He would get in front of the heat vent, and lay there until the metal on his collar would get so hot that if it touched your skin you would jerk away. He would go out on the deck and sunbathe mid summer. On the flip side, he would also go lay his belly in front of the fan immediately following getting hot, lol. That bare belly really helped him cool back down quickly. And he loved to get in front of the AC vent when he was hot. He really understood how to use the environment to his advantage, lol. I don't think that bear coat Nash wears all over is going to allow fans to help nearly as much, lol. I expected Nash to be more cold blooded, but holy cow.

I know he will acclimate to being inside over the next month or so, and is already doing better with it. We will just slowly work things back up to about 70 and see how things go. For now we just keep things extra cool and make a bigger effort to cool him off if he gets a little too hot. Normal mode for the house is 68-70 during the day with a couple degrees cooler overnigh, so I think he should be ok once he gets acclimated. Unfortunately, for him, he is still very very clingy. He loves to curl up, or now more often, stretch out on or next to us. [off topic -- All that contact makes it REALLY HARD to not mess with his ears... I just learned a couple days ago to leave them be until they are done popping. OHHHH ITS SO HARD!] Anyway... all that snuggling builds even more heat. He, finally just last night, seemed to realize that it's cooler on the floor and did hop down to cool off a bit by the door (which we've tried propping open a bit to let cool air in). I suspect as he gets more and more comfortable with us and his new home he will spend more time in cooler places.

Since I keep referencing Beau - here are a couple shots of him. The first was him trying to catch treats, lol. He was about 10% over his ideal weight then, but we got it back down. The second, is a much sadder pic. This was taken after he was extremely ill, trying to fight off things in which he couldn't. We lost Beau, humanely, a few weeks later.

7-15-07 to 10-4-18
Beaureguard Lively
Constantly and Always missed.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Oh how it helps to vent!!

I have been in your situation before and have learned some lessons. No matter what the promise or what they guarantee it's only as good as the breeder themselves, and a warranty is worth as about as much as the paper it's written on.

I also learned i have a part to play in it as well. I didn't have to accept the puppy. I could forfeit my deposit and move on, but i had waited so long and needed to start training as my service dog asap, so i took her. I have worked with many excellent breeders in Germany this was my first AKC breeder i have worked with and i learned some valuable lessons...Most importantly, next time I'll visit the breeder BEFORE i place a deposit.

That said. It seems you and i have been blessed. Your puppy looks healthy and happy. My little girl is healthy and happy. Enjoy your new baby! That's what i am doing and only taking a lesson learned with me.
Yup - I 100% agree, it seems we have a happy healthy pupper! The rest is noise, as long as hes happy and healthy I'm fine. Now to get that little stinker to fully understand outside vs inside for pee time lol. Two days ago, a perfect day. Last evening, a three-PEEte in the living room. :crying: Oh well, that's part of the game...
 

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Beau looks like such a nice dog that was very well loved.

I get what your message is. If you buy from a BYB or whoops litter don't assume everything has been done correctly on their word and take your own precautions. The prevailing, and good, advice is don't support BYBs. Life happens, but in general...yeah...it only encourages them to make more BYB pups. Anyway, it's been said and it can go in the rearview now that you have your boy. He is adorable by the way :)

May I make a suggestion given his origins? If you have not already, get pet insurance NOW before anything pops up and becomes "pre existing". If he does not come from health tested lines there is a greater chance he could later on in life benefit from therapies and remedies for common issues in GSDs.
 

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Even if he'd had all 3 on your assumed schedule, it was still too soon to go to Petsmart because of the 2-3 week time for immunity to build after the final shot. I'm actually not happy PS took him -- if groomers are regulated in your state, you might want to let them know. I've always been asked for updated shot records--I thought that was standard operating procedure, but maybe not.

I agree about running a fecal test bc most pups have worms and need a few rounds of deworming -- that's very normal. However, at the first sign of any watery poop, I'd be running a parvovirus test too, due to the known window of exposure....esp. if Your local PS is regularly serving unvaxed dogs!

While you wait for full immunity, you can learn how to bathe at home. Pups are wiggly but fairly easy. I pull feces-covered shelter dogs out for breed rescue regularly, and we handle the baths at home as we don't know if they're infectious and most aren't fully vaxed yet. It's a dirty job, but it doesn't take long. A pair of disposable gloves and a kong zoom groom really help!
 

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I just want to add...

Dang! He has a really nice head! Holy handsome!

Sounds to me like the people are more ignorant than dishonest. You'll know better next time. Just enjoy him.
 

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I agree. The fact they offered to take him back and refund, or pay for his shots...sounds like life just ran over them and while not "breeders" they were willing to do the right thing. Enjoy Nash :)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Beau looks like such a nice dog that was very well loved.

I get what your message is. If you buy from a BYB or whoops litter don't assume everything has been done correctly on their word and take your own precautions. The prevailing, and good, advice is don't support BYBs. Life happens, but in general...yeah...it only encourages them to make more BYB pups. Anyway, it's been said and it can go in the rearview now that you have your boy. He is adorable by the way :)

May I make a suggestion given his origins? If you have not already, get pet insurance NOW before anything pops up and becomes "pre existing". If he does not come from health tested lines there is a greater chance he could later on in life benefit from therapies and remedies for common issues in GSDs.
You perceived Beau correctly. Great dog. Ornery at times, he was a hound afterall, lol. But a great companion, albeit issue ridden.

Yeah, I don't think they are looking to be true "breeders". We did look at an Aussie litter that was what I really consider a BYB, and that was a quick no-go. I guess I probably used the word breeder to cavalierly, which is my fault. I could be wrong, and maybe their intentions are not a little less nefarious than what I consider BYB --- BUT --- that said, the point remains and stands valid. You live, you learn... We did dig into health of the parents, parents-parents and there were no issues disclosed on either Dam or Sire side --- but, not certified or warrantied, etc. And after the whole shot snafu, I'm less inclined to believe there was much research done. I do, however, think owner dad did dig into the Sire side pretty closely before he got him. As I understand it, he's from a German Show Line (Dad being F1) from a breeder. It was not advertised or anything, we were talking about them and it only came out when asking about them specifically. At this point, its moot. We have Nash, and we will own whatever comes with that - good, bad, or indifferent. He will be neutered regardless.


As for insurance, we have been debating that a little as well. Beau had long lasting issues with allergies and hip displasia. Ultimately, chronic kidney failure and a myriad of cancers took hold and we lost the battle. A little insurance would have been handy... To be candid, that was exactly the reason we were not looking for a full bred pup. We were looking to pick up a mixed breed to help avoid some of the concerns common with breed specific lines. Honestly, we were looking for a young shelter rescue...and then ended up going this direction lol. go figure.

However, in hind site, I kind of wish we had went the opposite direction and just worked with a breeder and hand selected a clean line of whatever breed it was. As they say, you get what you pay for...

Reverting back to insurance, does anyone have any suggestions of a good insurer? If we do go down this line, I'd rather make a good pick in that regard, and there's no better way of knowing than by experience.
 
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