German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I was wondering if anyone might have some feedback on the use of Esther-C for hip dysplasia and joint injuries. My 6 year old GSD male pulled his back 2 weeks ago, he's been seen by the vet, had xrays done and was given Prednisone. Although the xrays were fine and she did not recommend any other treatment at that time, I decided to start him on Glyco Flex III. No definite diagnosis at this time (nearest MRI 12 hours away & ++ $$) and his rear is is getting better.

I read the article about how Esther-C may help hip dysplasia and other joint injuries. Has anyone used it? I would appreciate getting your input,

Thanks!

 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Many of us here use Esther-C and this subject comes up frequently thankfully or I wouldn't have known about it myself. I've long had my mildly HD GSD Odin on supplements such as Glucosamine/Chondroitin, but some months ago started him on Esther-C as well after reading a thread here about it. MaggieRose and Tula gave me very helpful information. I started him out with a bit too much at 500 mg and the poor guy had serious diahria. I dropped him to 250 mgs by breaking the tablet in half for a week until he could adjust to it and he was much better. Then I brought him up to 500 mg for two weeks and now he's on 1000 mgs a day. It has made a HUGE difference in his quality of life! Although no cure for HD, it does indeed help them live with it much better than without it. My boy is bouncy again and the stiffness in getting up is long gone. We go skijoring together and he has no ill effects from the exercise. Esther-C is very much worth doing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thank you so MUCH for the reply. I really appreciate your input. I'm hopeful that this will help him. Thanks again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,649 Posts
Both of my dogs are on 2000mg of Ester C per day. One has HD and the other has arthritis. I start with 250mg per meal and work up to 1000mg per meal. I use the capsules and open them up and mix them into the food.

If you don't get the results you want from the Glycoflex then I would try Longevity from Springtime Inc. Other people highly recommend Cosequin and I am about to try this Arthroplex and add MSM.

Be sure to do lots of on leash walking with your dog and aquatherapy is also good if you have water or a facility nearby.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
But wouldn't that pass through there systems much more quickly? I seem to recall the idea behind Esther-C over regular C was that it would stay in the body longer and so do more good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,397 Posts
I don't think that sodium ascorbate is "regular vitamin C". In fact, I don't know what "regular vitamin C" is off the top of my head! Ascorbic acid I think. When it's combined with any mineral, I think it's supposed to be easier on the stomach.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html

All I know is that with "regular C" and with Ester-C, my GSD gets really loose stools. Both dogs did well on the sodium ascorbate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Konan has his follow up tomorrow at the vet and I am hoping that she's found an acceptable improvement in his rear. My biggest concern is what future lies ahead for him, so I can't thank you guys enough for all of your advice and input! I feel better just reading your success stories.
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Originally Posted By: LisaTI don't think that sodium ascorbate is "regular vitamin C". In fact, I don't know what "regular vitamin C" is off the top of my head! Ascorbic acid I think. When it's combined with any mineral, I think it's supposed to be easier on the stomach.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html

All I know is that with "regular C" and with Ester-C, my GSD gets really loose stools. Both dogs did well on the sodium ascorbate.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was comparing how quickly sodium passes through the system and how quickly regular vitamin C does. I didn't mean to imply that they are the same thing.

Yep, Odin had the loose stools when he had too high a dosage of Esther-C at first so I dropped him down to a smaller amount and gradually worked him up to higher levels. No problems and no loose stools. Since Esther-C is bonded to calcium and that is very key in bone and joint issues I'm going to stick with that. As you said, it's bonded with a mineral that way and one that would stay longer in the body than either sodium or regular C.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,520 Posts
"My 6 year old GSD male pulled his back 2 weeks ago, he's been seen by the vet, had xrays done and was given Prednisone. Although the xrays were fine and she did not recommend any other treatment at that time, I decided to start him on Glyco Flex III. No definite diagnosis at this time (nearest MRI 12 hours away & ++ $$) and his rear is is getting better."

I would see a vet who does chiropractic (and maybe acupuncture) to get his back aligned again!! Otherwise you are more likely to have arthritic changes setting in and other parts of the body might get affected too since they have to compromise.
It doesn't hurt to give the vit-c as an anti-inflammatory, but defen. get an alignment too.
Good luck!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,397 Posts
Originally Posted By: GSDad......s you said, it's bonded with a mineral that way and one that would stay longer in the body than either sodium or regular C.
I didn't realize that it was supposed to stay in the body longer. My girl I think would work up to a dose, but the GSD seems sensitive to extra calcium, and I think that's part of it. Oh well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,610 Posts
I don't know about animals, but most human studies show that Ester-C shows no benefit over regular old ascorbic acid (vit. C) other than reduced gastric sensitivity.

There are other forms such as the calcium ascorbate and sodium ascorbate, which just attaches a mineral onto the vit C. and it has some decrease in GI sensitivity over regular vit. C as well.

unlike other vit's such as vit E, there is no difference really between synthetic or natural vit C. with things like Vit, E, you want natural vit. E
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Originally Posted By: crackemI don't know about animals, but most human studies show that Ester-C shows no benefit over regular old ascorbic acid (vit. C) other than reduced gastric sensitivity.

There are other forms such as the calcium ascorbate and sodium ascorbate, which just attaches a mineral onto the vit C. and it has some decrease in GI sensitivity over regular vit. C as well.

unlike other vit's such as vit E, there is no difference really between synthetic or natural vit C. with things like Vit, E, you want natural vit. E
Here's your answer: http://bajaokla.com/dachback/ester_c.htm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,397 Posts
I might have to look at this some more. I like the sodium ascorbate for a couple of reasons -- it's the one that the vet Belfield uses and recommends, and he's one of the first to come out with the HD/vit C connection, and Max has low sodium, so I don't mind putting extra in his diet.

If I find anything, I'll be sure to post it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,520 Posts
Belfield has used sodium ascorbate esp. in acute diseases like distemper and parvo per IV with astonishing results. But he has done his study on GSD's and prevention of HD on ascorbic acid.
Dr. Kalokerinos has also used sodium ascorbate per IV to prevent cod death (SID) after vaccination in the Aboriginees and has put the kids on ascorbic ascid for maintanance.
But ascorbic ascid is absorbed or flushed from the (human) system in about 4 hours so one should take it 3xday.
I've seen so many studies on Vitamin C, but all were about ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate only!


Ascorbic acid (hydrogen ascorbate) is the form made in the livers (or kidneys) of most animals. This form is highly reactive and it is biologically active. According to Robert Cathcart, MD, the world's leading vitamin C expert, twice as much of any other form of the vitamin is required to achieve therapeutic results when taken by mouth.
"I noticed that it was not entirely clear that the dramatic effects are always with ascorbic acid orally and sodium ascorbate intravenously. I have not been able to achieve the ascorbate effect with mineral ascorbates orally. Mineral ascorbates are fine forms of vitamin C but when you are really sick, the mitochondria are failing in their refueling of the free radical scavengers with electrons. The ascorbic acid carries 2 extra electrons per molecule where the mineral ascorbates seem to carry only one (plus per molecule the mineral ascorbates are heavier due to the mineral weighing more than the hydrogen the mineral replaces). So the mineral ascorbates are not potent enough to accomplish the ascorbate effect. There may be other reasons that we do not appreciate additionally"

Link
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for the advice. I have located a vet who dabbles in Chiro approx 5 hrs drive away from my home. I'll try to get Konan in there to see him. Meanwhile, I had him followed up today by his regular vet, which proved to be a very promising visit. His scoliosis is pretty well gone, but I am still going to take your advice and get him in to see a chiro vet. Thanks for your tip!
 
G

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
From the article I posted above:

Quote:CLINICAL TRIAL OF ESTER-C POLYASCORBATE from The Norwegian Veterinary Journal Volume 102 August/September 1990.

POLYASCORBATE (C-Flex), AN INTERESTING ALTERNATIVE BY PROBLEMS IN THE SUPPORT AND MOVEMENT APPARATUS IN DOGS. BY: Geir Erik Berge, Gronuddalen Dyreklinikk, Oslo, Norway.

Ever since Dr. Lind in the year 1740 discovered that juice from citrus fruits could prevent scurvy in sailors, Vitamin C has had a natural place in human nutrition.

All species except primates, guinea pigs, certain types of bats, salmon varieties, certain insects and shellfish have enzyme systems that convert glucose to ascorbic acid (1). Vitamin C has hence received little attention within veterinary medicine.

The assumption that animals at all times are capable of producing sufficient quantities themselves is however probably not a valid one.

Ascorbic acid plays a role in a large number of biochemical reactions in the metabolism of collagen and in the immune system as well as in a series of redox reactions.

Also metabolites of Vitamin C are reactive components. Today's research gives these substances the attention they deserve. The conversion of ascorbic acid into these metabolites is believed to be dependent on the intra-cellular ascorbic acid concentration. Under certain circumstances, like infections, traumatic or physical stress, larger amounts of ascorbic acid and its metabolites are being consumed by various tissues.

Under these conditions, it is very well possible that the animal's own production cannot cope with the demand of supplying all tissues with optimal levels of ascorbic acid.

Ascorbic acid is an acidic, water soluble molecule which after ingestion is very rapidly excreted through the kidneys. Ascorbic acid has pka 4.17.

The ideal Vitamin C would be a pH neutral molecule that would not cause irritation to the gastrointestinal tract, that is rapidly absorbed from the gut, that is more slowly excreted, and that has the ability to cross cell membranes in a more efficient way than does ascorbic acid, so that higher intra-cellular levels can be reached.

Such a Vitamin C (classified as a polyascorbate) has been developed and patented by Inter-Cal Corporation of Prescott, Arizona under the trademark C-Flex.

Polyascorbate is a complex mixture of calcium ascorbate molecules and the above mentioned metabolites. In water solution the polyascorbate is pH neutral, which influences the osmolarity in the intestinal tract less than does ascorbic acid, which has a pH 2.4. It is absorbed faster in both animals and humans.

Furthermore, slower excretion and higher intra-cellular concentrations are achieved. Clinical studies suggest that the metabolites created during C-Flex's unique manufacturing process are of vital importance in its increased ability to penetrate cell membranes and thus give higher intra-cellular ascorbate absorption.


Robert Davis, PhD., at the Pennsylvania College of Podiatric medicine observed that polyascorbate lessened both symptoms and pain and stiffness in arthritis patients (5).

The target for this study was to observe the effect of the polyascorbate in dogs with clinical symptoms of chronic inflammation processes in joints, skeleton and muscles, as routinely treated with antiphlogistics and corticoids

MATERIAL & METHODS: The study was carried out at Groruddalen, Dyreklinikkover a six month period in 1988. One hundred (100) dogs of different breeds and ages were given C-Flex approx. 30mgs/kg body weight three (3) times a day, orally.

All treatments were given because owners saw the animal's symptoms of limping, lameness, limited movement ability and pain. Diagnosis was made on the basis of journals, clinical evaluation and, if necessary, X-rays. The effect was measured as changes in symptoms partly by new clinical assessment and partly by owners reporting their evaluation of treatment. The effect was measured after seven (7) to ten (10) days, more than six (6) weeks and after approx. six (6) months.

A series of both acute and chronic ailments were treated. With acute problems and conditions that rapidly change, it is difficult to distinguish between effect of treatment and other influential factors. Such patients were therefore excluded from the study. One has hence limited the study to observe effect of:

* symptoms that have a known cause and that are permanent, and

* where symptoms had been stable over a minimum of six (6) weeks, and

* must be assumed to persist without treatment

Dogs with the following ailments were included:

*Arthrosis

*Spondylosis

*Hip Dysplasia

*Older disc prolapse with permanent secondary changes

*Senile wear changes in support and movement tissue
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top