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Me 2. The subject in itself is controvercial (to use or not to use), then there is controvercy among the users regarding which technique to use from the following,

1: Avoidance Technique
Where stimulation is started and continued till dog responds to command. Dog obeys quicker in order to stop the stimulation.

2: Correction Technique
Stimulation is given only after dog refuses to obey a command that he knows well. Also used to correct unwanted behavior.

1 uses low level continous stimulation, 2 uses high level nick. Depends upon the training goal and the subject dog. In some cases none is needed! in some cases one or the other is used, in some cases a combination of both are used.
 

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Originally Posted By: PackenMe 2. The subject in itself is controvercial (to use or not to use), then there is controvercy among the users regarding which technique to use from the following,

1: Avoidance Technique
Where stimulation is started and continued till dog responds to command. Dog obeys quicker in order to stop the stimulation.

2: Correction Technique
Stimulation is given only after dog refuses to obey a command that he knows well. Also used to correct unwanted behavior.

I use the E collar the same way you would use an prong collar, the major benefit there is the consistancy of the correction. It is also the fastest way to teach recall and distant commands. The pager recall is also nice.

1 uses low level continous stimulation, 2 uses high level nick. In some dogs none is needed! in some cases one or the other is used, in some cases a combination of both is used.
I use the Ecollar the sameway you would use an prong collar, it is also the fastest way to teach recall and distance commands. the pager recall is also nice.
 

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I think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.
I prefer to have the dogs obey because they want to (with lures and rewards), not out of fear of being shocked.
 

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Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.
The Ecollar is a completely humane tool for training a dog.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI prefer to have the dogs obey because they want to (with lures and rewards), not out of fear of being shocked.
If you think that dogs trained with Ecollars obey only because they "fear being shocked" you don't understand the method. Looking at this another way, a dog trained by being lured is afraid that if he doesn't obey, that he won't get the treat.
 

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I don't like e-collars. I'd never use one because I think it's an excuse for not working harder with your dog. However, I will not frown upon someone else for using one. I will train my way, someone else will train their way, different, but acceptable.
 

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My GSD was born with a huge prey drive from the start. He will bark,chase and even pounce on anything smaller than him it seems.
I have 3 cats and lets just say they really hated him (and they are dog freindly cats)
Long story short I tryed numerous techniques my trainer told me to,and everything falied with flying colors.

Finally my trainer after class last wk said she would come over and show me how she uses her e-collar in these situations.(my trainer rox btw) Since he is still a babe, I was not happy but I was happy after she agreed to only use the pager. Its the vibration.She had the dogtra series for hunting(has the pager,nic,and cont) The second he went for my cat,and he did not respond to vocal commands she paged it. He stopped dead in his tracks and looked at us and came and sat by me. I praised him and treated him,and was so shocked that It worked.

The next day I went and got one,and now after only 4 days around my cats I dont have to even page him.He wears it so he knows,But I dont have to even use it now. Just say "leave it" and he does.Lots of Treat and hugs.

So I myself would have never imagined using such a tool, but I know the only time I myself will is with my cats and outside off leash( I also hike alot).He will not be having the collar for hiking for quite some time yet however. I want him finished with his classes first and than like the other people on here only on and used when needed. He has a very high critter drive and I also want to keep him safe. I dont want to however hinder his training or our bond. My voice is what I want him to respond to in the long run,and the collar as back up sorta speak. I couldnt dream of using it for reg basic commands such as drop,sit ect. That in my eyes would be an over use of it,and I am far from a " lazy " person when it comes to my dog.
 

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<i>Do you think they're an acceptable training method?</i>
In some cases, but in the vast majority of cases IMO it's not necessary.

<i>In what situation, if any, would you use one on your dog?</i>
Only if I had tried every single other method first and none of them worked. Not likely though.

<i>If you do use one, do you consider it a temporary training tool, or something you will continually use to deal with the problem?</i>
If I was to use one, it'd be as temporary as possible.

As a continual method, I give the e-collar a
.
 

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Originally Posted By: LouCastle
Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.
The Ecollar is a completely humane tool for training a dog.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI prefer to have the dogs obey because they want to (with lures and rewards), not out of fear of being shocked.
If you think that dogs trained with Ecollars obey only because they "fear being shocked" you don't understand the method. Looking at this another way, a dog trained by being lured is afraid that if he doesn't obey, that he won't get the treat.
So it's you again.
BTW, the "fear" of not getting the treat is a much different fear than being shocked. Would you rather be shocked, or have a treat withheld from you? I'd choose having the treat withheld.
To boot, we're already discussing this on Dogster, so just lay off me here please.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is not to debate in.
 

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Lou Castle is a respected professional dog trainer http://www.loucastle.com/ that I would use in a heartbeat if I were on he Left Coast. I'll say it again if you have no issue with using a prong collar then an E Collar will make you a more effective trainer, cookie pushing is great for puppies but after awhile a mature dog is going to try to develope his/her own agenda and get collar/leash wise fast. E collars work and are humane, the biggest advantages are consistant cueing , correction and distance. As soon as the dog realizes that you can control him from across a football field or any room in the house your on your way to having a UberHund
 

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I realize that about him, heard all about it on Dogster. The debate over on Dogster is getting into more of a war though. I thought a lot of him at first, but then...nevermind. I might get into trouble if I get into that.
As for "cookie pushing", I don't agree. Cookie learned her first command at age 5. I started training her with treats when she was 8 years old and last year switched over to complete positive reinforcement. She's now 10, knows basic Obedience, and several tricks. I just discovered the NILIF (nothing in life if free) part of positive reinforcement months ago and ever since I've started using it, Cookie's obedience is getting better.
I'm still learning about positive reinforcement, and it seems the more I learn the better my training goes along.
As for a prong collar, yes I'd have just as much issues with using that as with using an e-collar.
 

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I'm sorry "Cookie pushing" is a term some of use to denote the "Positive Only" training style and I use a style of it for puppies up to 6 months and any time I'm teaching a new skill or tricks. They don't want to do a trick I don't care, they want to bolt out the door, chase a cat or not recall off a ball that rolled out into the street or out of bounds or not let go of the helper then I want my dog to understand she MUST obey not " well if I blow him off I won't get a treat and he'll just turn a funny color"
 

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My other dog, which I got from the shelter last year, I've been using positive reinforcement with him from the start. He knows as many tricks as Cookie does and obeys well. Just today, he got loose outside (by accident) and followed me on my bike. He'd get sidetracked for a moment but I'd just tell him "leave it" and he would. And when we got home I called him to me and he came.
Treader was about two or three when I got him, according to the shelter.
I have Cookie loose outside quite often and she does well on her recall and will even obey commands. One day a friend of mine was taking his 4-wheeler back to his house. I put Cookie in a sit/stay for fear that she'd give chase. She stayed until I gave the release cue.
 

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That's fine. Keep using your own method. And I'll keep using mine.
I'd definitely use positive reinforcement on any dog that I get, but that's just my preference.
 

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Originally Posted By: CookieGSDSo it's you again.
Again? LOL. More like "still." Looking at our join dates, I've been here about two years longer than you have.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSD BTW, the "fear" of not getting the treat is a much different fear than being shocked.
Perhaps it is. Which is more severe is up to the dog to decide, not you or I.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSD Would you rather be shocked, or have a treat withheld from you? I'd choose having the treat withheld.
I'd rather have a stim from an Ecollar used as I do. As I said, it's up to the animal on the receiving end.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSD To boot, we're already discussing this on Dogster, so just lay off me here please.
I have no idea who you are and it really makes no difference. Looks like we're having the discussion here too.

Originally Posted By: CookieGSD Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is not to debate in.
Is there some limit placed on this thread that I'm not aware of? Your comments that I've already responded to sure seem to me to be part of a "debate."
 

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Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarLou Castle is a respected professional dog trainer http://www.loucastle.com/ that I would use in a heartbeat if I were on he Left Coast.
Thanks for the kind words.
 

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Ok, one thing that has been asked but not really addressed and I've always wondered about ...

What do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.

Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.
 

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Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOk, one thing that has been asked but not really addressed and I've always wondered about ...

What do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.

Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.
they wear the collar deactivated for a period of time before the training actualy starts
 

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Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangWhat do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.

Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.
As you say this is a training flaw that can happen with any collar or even something as benign as a bandanna.

Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar they wear the collar deactivated for a period of time before the training actualy starts
MG is right. I know of one trainer who puts the Ecollar on the dog for three months before he starts to train with it. But few people have that much time to spare.

Sometimes, such as when I meet with a new client, it's not possible. I suggest that you (if you're going to be home) put the collar on in the morning when you get up and take it off at night, when you go to bed. Do this whether you go training or not. If you're not going to be home, when you do get home put it on and then take if off just before you go to bed.

If you do this MAKE SURE that you move the collar around on the dog's neck every couple of hours. If you don't you'll have sores on his neck from where the contact points rub against his skin. Also ensure that you have the collar strap on at the correct tension.

The problem is created by trainers who put it on, work with the dog and then take it off. It only takes doing this a couple of times and the dumbest of dogs will figure out what's causing the stim.
 
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