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I just can't comprehend training the sit, heel, down and place with an E collar? I've trained more than a few dogs to do a lot of stuff and have never used an E collar to train a behavior. I do use an E collar, just not for teaching a behavior. I have seen people do it, know some trainers that do it, but I just don't see a need or advantage to it. I prefer to teach with out compulsion and punishment. I train motivationally, teach motivationally and then proof the behaviors.

I do not believe in correcting a dog for a behavior that it is not trained to do or fully understands.

I also do not understand why you would train "tricks" with a clicker and positive reinforcement, but train the sit with punitive techniques?

I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative, I really don't get it. Also, I use an E collar and I am certainly not against E collar use. I just use it in a very different way and with a different expectation of performance.
 

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I taught sit and down with treats, nothing else. I stopped using treats after mine learned simple rote behaviors. I teach chains of behaviors with other tools. I know people here use clickers but I prefer to have my hands free.

The reason I used treats is that I started training at 8 weeks and had no other tools I would use on a tiny puppy. How old is your dog?
 

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I use the e-collar to proof behaviors and for reinforcement until the dog is solid. I use vocal markers for most luring type training, like positions, and a clicker to capture behaviors that the dog already does, like shake your head or look up.
 

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Thanks for the replies. When i use ecollar i seldom use it to correct my dog rather to stimulate the pressure of a leash. For example when youre first doing recall you communciate to the dog by gently pulling on the leash. You also add ecollar stim (at low levels) to communicate the recall. Over time you stop the leash, then work with the ecollar only. This allows you to recall at distance up to 50 ft and more.

Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

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I'm going with the flow.....the basics and most other obedience skills never required an e-collar......the e-collar made the previously learned skills honed in the manner of consistency, speed and accuracy......only exception was my use of the e-collar regarding her reactivity to other dogs......doggy treats didn't quite offer enough pressure on her...even if I put hot mustard on the treats:wink2:

SuperG
 

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Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

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You don't have to defend your use of an e-collar in here.....

There are some smart cookies in here that can really help you with the use of an e-collar....I learned much from them.


SuperG
 

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I use the e-collar to proof behaviors and for reinforcement until the dog is solid. I use vocal markers for most luring type training, like positions, and a clicker to capture behaviors that the dog already does, like shake your head or look up.
You use "Clickers???" Please explain, "your" reasoning behind doing so??

"My" reason for not using them/recommending are fairly simple ... first "JQP has to understand "how to use that "tool" properly and then they have to "translate" what they "think they understand to there dog??" Just another layer of potential "confusion" in my view ... this "despite" the fact that one of my "guys" Gary Wilkes (the Bonker guy) is the King of Click and Treat??? Life is full of "irony." :p
 

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You don't have to defend your use of an e-collar in here.....

There are some smart cookies in here that can really help you with the use of an e-collar....I learned much from them.


SuperG
Just wanted clarity. I know a lot people lurking this form and doesnt know the philosophy behind ecollar.

I'm going with the flow.....the basics and most other obedience skills never required an e-collar......the e-collar made the previously learned skills honed in the manner of consistency, speed and accuracy......only exception was my use of the e-collar regarding her reactivity to other dogs......doggy treats didn't quite offer enough pressure on her...even if I put hot mustard on the treats:wink2:

SuperG

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Thanks for the replies. When i use ecollar i seldom use it to correct my dog rather to stimulate the pressure of a leash. For example when youre first doing recall you communciate to the dog by gently pulling on the leash. You also add ecollar stim (at low levels) to communicate the recall. Over time you stop the leash, then work with the ecollar only. This allows you to recall at distance up to 50 ft and more.

Also to put things into perspective, humans feel a microscopic tickle between level 10 to 14. My dog works at level 2.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
This is where I differ with using an E collar to teach behaviors. I understand how low stim works and I understand how to train a recall with a "tug" on the leash. The tug on the leash, while effective is rather antiquated, IMHO. It is part of the KMODT, which while some is still good and applicable, some….well, not so much.

To think that a "stim" from an E collar is not punishment is incorrect. If you use it like some advocates and "teach" the dog to turn the stim off when it recalls it is certainly negative. If the dog enjoyed the stim, well, it simply would not come back at all. It would wander around the yard getting that "gentle neck massage" that some folks claim it to be. >:) If it was pleasant to the dog, the dog wouldn't respond. I hope that makes sense???? Keeping the stim on, even on a low level is discomfort to the dog, we need to be very clear on this. Again, if it was enjoyable the dog would not give you the response. And what happens when the low level stim doesn't work???? Naturally, one would need to raise the stim to a suitable "working level" or a level where the discomfort is enough to cause / force the dog to comply. I am firmly against teaching a dog to operate under these conditions. You have no where to go but up.

I know some folks use E collars in this manner, I feel the need to point out the reality of the training method. I will say an E collar used in this method is better than the "tool of last resort" that many novices think it is.

I use an E collar almost every day on my dogs. It is a tool of finesse, to increase performance, never to train a command. I will say that the 3 dogs I work daily are much, much more than the average GSD. I also expect a performance level that most average folks will not achieve. To achieve a high level of performance, speed and exactness is near impossible, IMO with E Collar stim to teach behaviors.

Often, we are the issue of "well this is ok because my dog is just a pet." I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. I own pets as well and their training is just as humane, fair and fun as my other dogs.

I'm sorry, but I truly believe the so called "low level stim" to teach behaviors is a flawed E collar philosophy. There is no need to stim a dog to make it sit, just as there is no need to yank up on a leash to make a dog sit. It is old and poor training techniques. Doing both together doesn't make it cutting edge.

I have no issues training dogs to recall at a high speed with no E collar and no leash and no corrections. When training is fun the dog learns faster and the foundation is better. I am running a patrol school now for a green dog and green handler. First week and the dog is focused, happy, in drive, wanting to work and no leash or collar is needed for his recall. It is a totally different training philosophy and methodology. Very easy and very effective.

What many people do not realize are the undesirable effects of using compulsion to train behaviors. Experienced folks will know and recognize it quickly.
 

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This is where I differ with using an E collar to teach behaviors. I understand how low stim works and I understand how to train a recall with a "tug" on the leash. The tug on the leash, while effective is rather antiquated, IMHO. It is part of the KMODT, which while some is still good and applicable, some….well, not so much.

To think that a "stim" from an E collar is not punishment is incorrect. If you use it like some advocates and "teach" the dog to turn the stim off when it recalls it is certainly negative. If the dog enjoyed the stim, well, it simply would not come back at all. It would wander around the yard getting that "gentle neck massage" that some folks claim it to be. >:) If it was pleasant to the dog, the dog wouldn't respond. I hope that makes sense???? Keeping the stim on, even on a low level is discomfort to the dog, we need to be very clear on this. Again, if it was enjoyable the dog would not give you the response. And what happens when the low level stim doesn't work???? Naturally, one would need to raise the stim to a suitable "working level" or a level where the discomfort is enough to cause / force the dog to comply. I am firmly against teaching a dog to operate under these conditions. You have no where to go but up.

I know some folks use E collars in this manner, I feel the need to point out the reality of the training method. I will say an E collar used in this method is better than the "tool of last resort" that many novices think it is.

I use an E collar almost every day on my dogs. It is a tool of finesse, to increase performance, never to train a command. I will say that the 3 dogs I work daily are much, much more than the average GSD. I also expect a performance level that most average folks will not achieve. To achieve a high level of performance, speed and exactness is near impossible, IMO with E Collar stim to teach behaviors.

Often, we are the issue of "well this is ok because my dog is just a pet." I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. I own pets as well and their training is just as humane, fair and fun as my other dogs.

I'm sorry, but I truly believe the so called "low level stim" to teach behaviors is a flawed E collar philosophy. There is no need to stim a dog to make it sit, just as there is no need to yank up on a leash to make a dog sit. It is old and poor training techniques. Doing both together doesn't make it cutting edge.

I have no issues training dogs to recall at a high speed with no E collar and no leash and no corrections. When training is fun the dog learns faster and the foundation is better. I am running a patrol school now for a green dog and green handler. First week and the dog is focused, happy, in drive, wanting to work and no leash or collar is needed for his recall. It is a totally different training philosophy and methodology. Very easy and very effective.

What many people do not realize are the undesirable effects of using compulsion to train behaviors. Experienced folks will know and recognize it quickly.
Thanks for the input. Good stuff

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You use "Clickers???" Please explain, "your" reasoning behind doing so??

"My" reason for not using them/recommending are fairly simple ... first "JQP has to understand "how to use that "tool" properly and then they have to "translate" what they "think they understand to there dog??" Just another layer of potential "confusion" in my view ... this "despite" the fact that one of my "guys" Gary Wilkes (the Bonker guy) is the King of Click and Treat??? Life is full of "irony."
:p
There is nothing wrong with clicker training when one understands how to use a clicker. One nice thing about working with a clicker and treats is that a novice can not screw up there dog, except maybe by adding a couple of pounds. Unlike an E collar, choke collar or Prong collar in the hands of "JQP."

You always seem to mention "JQP" as if normal people have no clue about training a dog at all. A clicker is a very powerful tool to train and shape behaviors. I use a clicker to train certain behaviors. I understand the philosophy and how to "load" the clicker and use it. If a person wants to take the time and effort to start with a clicker, well that is awesome. I know world level IPO trainers that use clickers to train behaviors. Then the clicker is phased out. A clicker can be a very good tool and certainly has no negative consequences to using it. Like other concepts in dog training, it is not rocket science and fairly simple tool to operate. :wink2:
 

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To be punitive by definition a behavior has to be inhibited. When you are using low stim it may be discomfort but when it is increasing the frequency a behavior will occur it is negative reinforcement. It is reinforcement just like positive reinforcement is reinforcement. It is not punitive because it is not punishment. When it is understood that pressure goes away when a behavior is done it is not punishment. This is not just a distinction of semantics. When you use tactful leash pressure to create a behavior and are gamey about how you release you can create a very fast snappy and happy behavior without EVER giving food or toy. I use prongs collar pressure on 8 week old puppies and hold them to tight criteria very quickly and they look like they were given food or toy for the behavior. Now not every dog will be like this there are some super soft ones sometimes or freezers that need some reward to help get them through some weirdness that they can go through as you start to increase pressure, but these dogs are the exception. If you want to see someone who is really good at doing this sort of thing with e collar check out Bart Bellon with his whole nepopo thing. He may still use food or toy reward at the end but e collar pressure is the foundation of the behavior.

There is a huge difference between punishing non compliance and using pressure to teach a behavior if you are doing it correctly procedure wise. Much of it is in the intensity of the stimulus but also in the order in which things are happening. When you turn on your car without buckling your seat belt what happens? Ding ding ding till you click your seatbelt in. Was it blaring out your ear drums? No. Negative reinforcement.

Now if you didnt plug your seat belt in and as a result it gave you an ear piercing screech that physically hurt your ear drums and didn't stop till you plugged your belt in that would be negative reinforcement at a high level and also have a punitive effect as well.

Now if you didnt plug your seat belt in and as a result it gave you an ear piercing screech that physically hurt your ear drums and didnt stop even after you plugged your seat belt in but continued for an indeterminate amount of time even after you plugged that seat belt in that would be mostly positive punishment for non compliance.

The quadrants dont have hard edges between them there is some overlap but which quadrant you are primarily in depends on procedure as well as timing and intensity.
 

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There is nothing wrong with clicker training when one understands how to use a clicker. One nice thing about working with a clicker and treats is that a novice can not screw up there dog, except maybe by adding a couple of pounds. Unlike an E collar, choke collar or Prong collar in the hands of "JQP."

You always seem to mention "JQP" as if normal people have no clue about training a dog at all. A clicker is a very powerful tool to train and shape behaviors. I use a clicker to train certain behaviors. I understand the philosophy and how to "load" the clicker and use it. If a person wants to take the time and effort to start with a clicker, well that is awesome. I know world level IPO trainers that use clickers to train behaviors. Then the clicker is phased out. A clicker can be a very good tool and certainly has no negative consequences to using it. Like other concepts in dog training, it is not rocket science and fairly simple tool to operate. :wink2:
LOL ... thanks and yes I do "always mention" JQP because "I" like to "think" I understand what they see?? Hence my ... "if I can do it ... you can to!" But yeah ... "apparently" not so much??? But safe to say ... I would be willing to bet ... "JQP" has no idea what, "Training and Shaping a Behaviour means?????" But ... "apparently" I am no longer qualified to "represent "JQO???" That aside ... you still mentioned my point ... a clicker is fine "if one understands how to use it." :)

I just view a "Clicker" as a "filter" between an owner with a "problem dog" and getting to the dog they want to have ... pretty much that simple ... to "me." :)
 

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To be punitive by definition a behavior has to be inhibited. When you are using low stim it may be discomfort but when it is increasing the frequency a behavior will occur it is negative reinforcement. It is reinforcement just like positive reinforcement is reinforcement. It is not punitive because it is not punishment. When it is understood that pressure goes away when a behavior is done it is not punishment. This is not just a distinction of semantics. When you use tactful leash pressure to create a behavior and are gamey about how you release you can create a very fast snappy and happy behavior without EVER giving food or toy. I use prongs collar pressure on 8 week old puppies and hold them to tight criteria very quickly and they look like they were given food or toy for the behavior. Now not every dog will be like this there are some super soft ones sometimes or freezers that need some reward to help get them through some weirdness that they can go through as you start to increase pressure, but these dogs are the exception. If you want to see someone who is really good at doing this sort of thing with e collar check out Bart Bellon with his whole nepopo thing. He may still use food or toy reward at the end but e collar pressure is the foundation of the behavior.

There is a huge difference between punishing non compliance and using pressure to teach a behavior if you are doing it correctly procedure wise. Much of it is in the intensity of the stimulus but also in the order in which things are happening. When you turn on your car without buckling your seat belt what happens? Ding ding ding till you click your seatbelt in. Was it blaring out your ear drums? No. Negative reinforcement.

Now if you didnt plug your seat belt in and as a result it gave you an ear piercing screech that physically hurt your ear drums and didn't stop till you plugged your belt in that would be negative reinforcement at a high level and also have a punitive effect as well.

Now if you didnt plug your seat belt in and as a result it gave you an ear piercing screech that physically hurt your ear drums and didnt stop even after you plugged your seat belt in but continued for an indeterminate amount of time even after you plugged that seat belt in that would be mostly positive punishment for non compliance.

The quadrants dont have hard edges between them there is some overlap but which quadrant you are primarily in depends on procedure as well as timing and intensity.
LOL ... that would be "Smokeyandthebandit" on "Boxer forum! He used a "Prong and an E-Collar" on a very young "Puppy???"
Trained in "Place" walks off leash with recall and "distractions" the puppy" looks just fine to my eyes?? He posted his work on "youtbe" only thing I had to say them is that ... "I doubt "most" people can do what he did??" He gets no "flack" from me. :)
 

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There is definitely an art to it but it's not that different from highly skilled marker and food training with precise criteria. It takes skill and timing to do either at a high level and that only comes with practice.
 

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There is definitely an art to it but it's not that different from highly skilled marker and food training with precise criteria. It takes skill and timing to do either at a high level and that only comes with practice.
LOL ... the "Art" to it thing. :)
 

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You use "Clickers???" Please explain, "your" reasoning behind doing so??

"My" reason for not using them/recommending are fairly simple ... first "JQP has to understand "how to use that "tool" properly and then they have to "translate" what they "think they understand to there dog??" Just another layer of potential "confusion" in my view ... this "despite" the fact that one of my "guys" Gary Wilkes (the Bonker guy) is the King of Click and Treat??? Life is full of "irony." :p
I see no irony in anyone, any trainer or owner, using any tool available to achieve results. I have trained very serious GSDs and Mals for military work using clickers and markers. I've also hung dogs until they were almost unconscious. There is no prefect recipe for dog training, except to use what you have in a way that is best suited to that particular dog in that particular situation.

Chip, this "JQP" that you always refer to doesn't exist. I have trained hundreds of people to train and handle dogs of all calibers and they are all different people. They all come with different levels of experience and knowledge. They all learn in their own ways and at their own pace. Proper training techniques are not some mystical power that you have to spend years honing to be proficient. You spend years getting better at them, but a marker is a marker, and clickers aren't rocket science.

Most people pick up on marker and clicker techniques pretty quickly, usually within a couple hours of training and some homework. That's a week spent learning how to shape behaviors. Do they understand all the science behind it? Not typically, but they don't need to. Are they as proficient at getting perfect behaviors or positions as a seasoned trainer, heck no, but they understand how to mark good behaviors and then reward the dog, increasing the likelihood that this behavior will repeat. It's really pretty simple for people to implement.

I use clickers to capture existing behaviors so I can place them on command. Things like pawing at you, shaking their head, barking, placing their head on your leg, jumping up on you, touching a target and so on. I also use a clicker for chaining some behaviors together. These are all handy tools when training a service dog or teaching tricks.

If you want a quick look at what clickers can do, check out kikopup on YouTube, or just search for border collie tricks.
 

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I use clickers to capture existing behaviors so I can place them on command. Things like pawing at you, shaking their head, barking, placing their head on your leg, jumping up on you, touching a target and so on.
Me too, I love capturing behaviors with a clicker, although with a young puppy I do it more for focus (later, the "watch" command and also as a default behavior), coming towards me (later, a recall command), sitting or laying down (default behaviors, especially with eye contact) at first.

It's a great technique for shaping more complex behaviors later on, but it's really good for foundation work too. Once the puppy is enthusiastically performing these behaviors I can add the verbal cue, but by training this way my dogs will offer up a sit and watch or a down and watch without being cued, due to the strong history of reinforcement.
 

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If your relationship with your dog is balanced, there shouldn't be, ideally, any overuse of tools. Prong collar is nothing else but the tool helping you to point to your dog his mistakes, training with prong collar - of course - is faster. I don't know why a clicker training is sought to be an alternative? That is another way to communicate. Some situations, just for instance, on search/tracking training sessions require a clicker, and training street patrolling requires wearing prong.

I trained a Husky with e-collar: she run after some car, jumping on the way when received repeated shock level 3, and continued to run in the same direction. Many dogs learn to avoid e-collar, some become wiser and read it on your face - you don't have your controller in your pocket. Thus, training takes some weird way.
 
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