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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all,

I have a mini educator a few weeks now. Its becoming a real pain to fit the collar on my 6 month old gsd. I can work on having him sit calmly but its the actual contact that its the issue. It can take 15 minutes to set up up correctly. He is a short haired gsd. I read on this site wetting the gods neck can help make good contact. Is this so? How about position of the collar? Is up high under the ear the best spot. I use the longer contact points already. How about the bungee accessory for these collars? can these help? I have tested the collar and receiver multiple times and all works fine.

Thank you
Joe
 

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I don't have a mini-educator but I know a lot of folks that do... for contact problems, most of them recommend a bungee collar. Ecollar tech sells them but you can find prettier ones elsewhere with a quick google search.
 

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You probably need longer contacts. No matter how tight their coats are, the contacts that come with any ecollar is never long enough.
 

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I have a bungee collar that i hate. I could not get it small enough for my Dutch Shepherd. But I found this collar https://k9tacticalgear.com/collections/e-collars/products/quick-elastic-e-collar-holder that I like much better. It has a longer section of elastic that I make sure is across her throat. She has an elongated pretty soft palate. Their freight is a little high, so my friend and I just ordered a bunch for her dogs and mine. She also got the longer contacts for her Aussies. I use a Dogtra 200 something for Rossi as the receiver on my old one had the contacts too far apart for her little skinny neck. Gunny will be learning the E-collar this week. Love Larry Kohn's book and method.
 

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I have a bungee collar that i hate. I could not get it small enough for my Dutch Shepherd. But I found this collar https://k9tacticalgear.com/collections/e-collars/products/quick-elastic-e-collar-holder that I like much better. It has a longer section of elastic that I make sure is across her throat. She has an elongated pretty soft palate. Their freight is a little high, so my friend and I just ordered a bunch for her dogs and mine. She also got the longer contacts for her Aussies. I use a Dogtra 200 something for Rossi as the receiver on my old one had the contacts too far apart for her little skinny neck. Gunny will be learning the E-collar this week. Love Larry Kohn's book and method.
Thank you for that. Yes I have read Larrys ebook. Its short but thats fine because it covers all you need.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So just a little update. When I first used the collar his working level was 7. I found I had to turn it up to 40+ to make it work. It's just a bad contact with the skin. I have however discovered new contacts for the collar with a think tip designed for the thick fur. These should help me with a better contact.
 

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I had a dogtra that needed longer points which I now question. I moved to is it ecollar technologies? the round unit its orange. The short contacts work well for my sable it's more about getting it correct for his level of arousal and where I've placed it and tightness. I prefer a stand or down for placement. I do like the ecollar but I'm timid using it I am constantly learning about my dog and how to use varies tools given the here and now.
 

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My dogs working level is 2 at home. Correction level at home is about a tap at 23 only have had to use 2x and two different behaviors. One was cat poop and another was prey behavior brought by over excitement with my son.
He has quit both behaviors but I waited sometime before ever correcting.
 

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I would be very careful using techniques that recommend "stimming" the dog to do a behavior and the "teach the dog to turn the collar off" stuff.

I use the same E collar on German Shepherds with thick coats, Dutch Shepherd with a thinner coat and have no issues. I do use the longer probes and adjust the collar when I put it on a dog. It takes about 10 seconds. I have never had to wet a dog's coat to get better contact.

@Joeydog:
So just a little update. When I first used the collar his working level was 7. I found I had to turn it up to 40+ to make it work. It's just a bad contact with the skin. I have however discovered new contacts for the collar with a think tip designed for the thick fur. These should help me with a better contact.

You may be mistaking an increase in drive in the dog for poor contact from the E collar. This is simply incorrect, that the contacts are not making contact. When a dog is out doing obedience, bite work, agility, chasing a rabbit, etc drive kicks in. Please do not mistake an increase in energy, drive or aggression as the collar not making contact or fitting properly. The length of the contacts is more than likely not the problem, the use of the E collar or technique, in this case is the problem.

I see people misunderstanding "working level" with "correction level."

I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors." I am also not a fan of those that say "I am teaching the dog to turn the E collar off." I googled Larry Krohn and watched a video of him working his malinois and his E collar use. Sorry, but there is a big difference in the dog when the E collar is on and when it is off. You can see the dog being stimmed and the head snap when given the down command. You can then see him have to give the dog double commands with out the E collar.

Dogs like people can learn through pain or joy. I am not one that will ever teach a dog a behavior through compulsion. I will teach motivationally, train positively, and then and only then when a dog understands a command will I ever use compulsion. If I do need to correct, the dog has 2 seconds to perform before being given a correction. That is fair! Pure and simple. I will never correct a dog before the command and the dog has a chance to perform and that is what you see in these methods.

I use an E collar on low level and I will adjust the level to give the proper correction depending on the dog's drive, intensity and behavior being worked. But, the dog is already trained and understands the command and behavior before any compulsion is used.

There is a big myth and misconception that "low level stim" from an E collar is not compulsion or is not discomfort. There is also the myth about "teaching" the dog to turn the stim off is positive training and not compulsion. I'm sorry, that is wrong. If the dog enjoyed the low level stim, he would never want it turned off. If it was pleasurable to the dog, he would keep doing what ever behavior you wanted to stop.

Just my opinion, FWIW. I've trained a lot of dogs in multiple venues and do use E collars. I am very much an advocate of E collars used properly by handlers who have experience using them.
 

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I love Larry krohns videos. That being said I do not use the e collar for every command. I know if I tell my dog to SIT she will, so there is no need to use the e collar. If I tell her to do something she knows and she doesn’t then she will get the command repeated with stim. My cattle dog is/was very dog reactive and the e collar has helped tremendously with that. Her correction level is about a 20-25 at the most.
 

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I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors."
When you watch the videos or read the websites, the thing that stands out to me is that there's still a leash, maybe treats, props like a place mat or something. All things that don't have any need to be combined with e to teach or train any of the things they're doing. The piece you don't need, is the e. Lets see what you get with only the e. I think e has great uses as a correction, but I think a lot of this is just using it for the sake of using it. Some want to claim great success "fixing" things with e, when the important part was as simple as consistent and structured training.
 

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I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors."
When you watch the videos or read the websites, the thing that stands out to me is that there's still a leash, maybe treats, props like a place mat or something. All things that don't have any need to be combined with e to teach or train any of the things they're doing. The piece you don't need, is the e. Lets see what you get with only the e. I think e has great uses as a correction, but I think a lot of this is just using it for the sake of using it. Some want to claim great success "fixing" things with e, when the important part was as simple as consistent and structured training.
I feel as though it has been a great communication tool. My cattle dog has had structured and consistent training but the prong wasn’t enough of a correction for her. The e collar on level 20 was a game changer and I can literally walk on the sidewalk past another dog now.
 

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I love Larry krohns videos. That being said I do not use the e collar for every command. I know if I tell my dog to SIT she will, so there is no need to use the e collar. If I tell her to do something she knows and she doesn’t then she will get the command repeated with stim. My cattle dog is/was very dog reactive and the e collar has helped tremendously with that. Her correction level is about a 20-25 at the most.
I have only seen one of his videos. His other videos might be great.

It is still not the method that I would use to train a dog with an E collar. I've been around dogs for a while and I have seen many different training techniques. I've been fortunate to have the ability and opportunity to train with some really successful trainers. I've been to the E collar training seminars with National level bird dog trainers, who compete for $50K cash prizes in one event. I understand why they do what they do with their dogs, and what their goals are. I have seen people develop a great working relationship with their dogs and others that have ruined their dogs.

When I read threads like this I become concerned. It's one thing for a "pro" with years of experience using an E collar and continuously "stimming" their dog to get a behavior or for the dog to "learn" a command. It is a completely different thing for a novice to watch a video, go to a website and try to learn or use these techniques themselves. It is not my choice of technique to train a dog.

I see many posters mentioning the correction levels they use. I can not say that a 20 is a harsh correction or a low level correction with out seeing get dog work. Larry Krohn was at a 6 and his dog head snapped pretty good in the video I saw. The OP mentioned going to a 40, that could be low level for his dog or too high. I've seen dogs respond to a 10 and other handlers go to a 127 with a dogtra collar to get a result. Again, it depends on the dog, it's level of drive, it's hardness and the brand of collar. If anyone would like an explanation on drives and hardness and how it pertains to E collar usage I would be happy to provide one. I use a Garmin tri tronics Sport G3 collar. It goes from 0 - 16. Boru will have an ear twitch at a 2, depends on his drive and what we are doing the level will move up or down. Sometimes, it will not work at all and the collar is fitted properly. ;)

Correction levels depend on the individual dog and the type of collar. All dogs react differently to E collars and the levels of correction are unique to the individual dog. I use an E collar on almost all of my dogs. With some dogs it works great for dog aggression, Boomer is a good example of that. With other dogs it may not work as well. Boru responds to low level stim if I am polishing an obedience exercise. Higher levels when working in drive is another story. He will fight through the stimulation when working the out on a bite suit. It's not that the collar is not fitted properly or the prongs are too short. It is the level of drive and hardness in the dog, and a dog like him would fight through the stimulation of two collars. It is simply not the right tool in that situation to get the results I want.

E collars can be awesome training tools, they just need to be used wisely.
 

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I feel as though it has been a great communication tool. My cattle dog has had structured and consistent training but the prong wasn’t enough of a correction for her. The e collar on level 20 was a game changer and I can literally walk on the sidewalk past another dog now.
A level 20 correction, that's my point. Not guiding them with a leash, putting them on a platform, marking and rewarding with a treat, and on top of that, buzzing them on 3 or 6 or whatever. I see no purpose for the e in all that.
 

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I’ve used one of Krohn’s videos on positioning dog with positive and it worked. I don’t recall that he was using an e collar. When I went to the next class with my own trainer, he was surprised at how quickly my dog had learned positioning outside of class. I’ve used e for some things but I usually don’t need it. I want to also stress how important it is to learn to use one from a pro and to use it sparingly and correctly, only when needed. It’s like a prong, if you just slap it on and rely on the tool instead of training, your dog won’t learn and you won’t be able to stop using it to get the same result.

Krohn is sensitive about being known as the e collar guy.

I Am NOT That E Collar Trainer
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks for the info all. Just to clarify I have not used the e collar yet for training. I was just checking it out. On its first few fittings I started on level 1 and when I got to level 7 the dog reacted and the muscle twitched. At a later date I couldn't seem to get it to fit properly as level 10, 20 30 40 etc had zero reaction from the dog. No muscle twitch etc. I take onboard all advice and he is starting one to one training sessions towards the end of the month with a local trainer.
 

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Krohn is sensitive about being known as the e collar guy.

I Am NOT That E Collar Trainer
I've always found him to be a very polite, respectful, nice guy. But if you're going to put up 15min selfies lecturing on ecollars???? LOl. Whats next? Culver City really did have an "In house trainer"? Come on....
 

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I've always found him to be a very polite, respectful, nice guy. But if you're going to put up 15min selfies lecturing on ecollars???? LOl. Whats next? Culver City really did have an "In house trainer"? Come on....
Why go bringing Culver City into this? :)
 
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