I have come to the conclusion that a shock collar is the only way to train a dog to listen all the time. Am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong. And probably unrealistic about the results you'll get from using an e-collar. Dogs absolutely can (and many do) learn when the collar is on and when it is not. And they know when it's not on, you can't "get them".I have come to the conclusion that a shock collar is the only way to train a dog to listen all the time. Am I wrong?
Think it depends on your training goals and what the collar is for.Yes you are wrong. And probably unrealistic about the results you'll get from using an e-collar. Dogs absolutely can (and many do) learn when the collar is on and when it is not. And they know when it's not on, you can't "get them".
I think in this case it also depends on consistency in training...I think it depends on the dog. I can only speak for mine, and I have come to the conclusion that only with a shock collar will she pay attention half the time. Without it, she won't do anything at all, and even with it on, sometimes whatever reward she sees out there (chasing a cat, running to the neighbors' house to see what's going on, etc.) is totally worth getting shocked over.
Do you find you always have to have the collar on in the woods? How do you use the collar (in the traditional way as a correction or with a low stim method)?Think it depends on your training goals and what the collar is for.
I don't have an e-collar on my dogs doing agility and it's all off leash and dog not even that close to me...
But for an 100% reliable 'come' when I'm our hiking and the deer run past.... that's what I use the e-collar for.
So not sure what the OP is really talking about when they want their dog to 'listen all the time'.
Listen to what?????
Thanks for this, and for the link. It was a very interesting read.This blog posts goes into a detailed outline of the training protocol one person used for teaching her dog not to chase livestock. She is a primarily positive trainer who found modern e-collar training fit in nicely with her training philosophy for this issue. An important thing to notice is that the e-collar was not used as a "quick fix" - she didn't just slap the collar on the dog, put her in with livestock and start correcting her when she chased.
The Vanya Project
No matter what tools you choose to use in training, it is important to have a clear understanding of foundation work and a plan. There's almost endless ways to teach any given behavior and people have certainly had success training reliability using all different methods.
Without a doubt, e-collars are misused especially by the general pet owning population who have the "strap a collar on and zap them when they do wrong" mentality. That isn't the fault of the tool but user. Still it does tend to leave people with a very poor opinion of the tool. I was always nervous about their use and they are not a tool I'd suggest someone go out and buy without instruction on proper use. But then, I also have offered to meet friends of friends at the petstore to show them how to fit and properly use a prong collar for walking. And I always am quick to provide info on conditioning dogs to headcollars whenever they are brought up. Getting a headcollar and just putting it on your dog then attempting to walk them on it with no previous training has a high risk of being extremely aversive. So I'm pretty adamant about proper use of training tools, regardless of what tool it is. In learning about modern, low stim training I can see how it can be "minimally aversive". Much less aversive than most dogs immediate reaction to having a headcollar put on.Thanks for this, and for the link. It was a very interesting read.
I have a pretty strong bias against e-collars because I've seen way too many dogs get permanently damaged by what I consider to be excessive use of the shocks. You know, the zombie robot dogs with the thousand-yard stares. The memory of those horrifying Stepford dogs, and the people who consider them "well trained" and want similar results for their own dogs, won't leave me anytime soon.
But that post about Vanya does deserve a lot of respect and thoughtful consideration.
Yes, but those collars don't stop at "low stim." They still go all the way up to 100, or 127. The potential is still there to deliver a very hard positive punishment.In learning about modern, low stim training I can see how it can be "minimally aversive".