[Dutchy]

Hello everybody. In communications with a trainer and considering E collar training with them but I'm trying to understand it better since this will be first I would be using it. My dog's at probably an 80-90 % recall success rate, with the decrease being around other dogs. My goal is a 100 % off the leash trained dog by a year old.


Searches of the forum constantly mention Lou Castle and his website, however, his website is now down. Is there anywhere this information still exists?


As I understand it, Castle's methodology is giving the dog a very low level shock when giving the command? Some posts mention it is different then Leerburg's methodology which has banned Lou Castle on the forums without kind words. But this board seems overwhelmingly supportive of Lou Castle's methodology.


Appreciate anybody pointing me to some good information so I can help understand the current methodology behind E Collar training.

 

[Steve Strom]

I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:

Dobbs Training Libraries

Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.

 

[WIBackpacker]

But this board seems overwhelmingly supportive of Lou Castle's methodology.

He was banned here, I don't think his methods have really been discussed on this forum since his membership was terminated.

 

[Mei]

I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:

Dobbs Training Libraries

Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.

This is great information, thanks! Mei has responded very well to the E-Collar training. I find myself rarely even using it lately, now that I mention it.

 

[lhczth]

He was banned because he couldn't play by the rules and not because of how he used the collar. Too bad his site is down. He was who I learned from.



I attended two seminars with Dodds. If that was my only experience with the E-collar I never would have used one.

 

[Dutchy]

He was banned here, I don't think his methods have really been discussed on this forum since his membership was terminated.

That would explain why I couldn't find much recently mentioning him. Everything goes back to like 2016 and earlier.

 

[Dutchy]

I wonder if your own website would ban you, once you've run out of forums? Here's some reading that predates that other guy:

Dobbs Training Libraries

Personally, I'd put the collar away for now. Your dogs too young. You can accomplish more then you think without it.

Thank you for the information. I did a small overview and it looks like a GREAT resource so I've bookmarked it and will start reading through. And yea, I'm not rushing into anything. She's doing great, but want to become more educated about it. I definitely teeter back and forth on the topic.

 

[tim_s_adams]

I don't know Lou Castle, but there are some great threads in the archives which have lots of links to additional information. Here's a couple.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/100659-another-ecollar-discussion.html

You can also pull up his profile and see all the threads he initiated...

 

[Sabis mom]

It's all fine and well to knock the man who is not here to defend himself, but considering the amount of work and time he donated to help people I haven't got much bad to say about him. I was a member of his site for a long time, and he was nothing but helpful and responsive. He exchanged dozens of emails with me and we chatted by phone several times while he was attempting to help with Shadow. His method worked beautifully until I screwed it up.
I didn't see anyone else offering to help.

 

[ausdland]

Agree with Steve.
I used (still do for some things) an e collar with my pup at a young age at too high of levels per a professional trainer and it wasn't fair. She was too young to fully understand what I was asking and even if she understood my expectations weren't realistic for a puppy under 1.5. Sending an 8 mo old high drive pup to run with a Mal and expecting her to break for recall was unrealistic. Thank god I have a strong dog and didn't wreck her. I won't give the next one as much freedom and my expectations will be lower until the pup matures to 1.5-2 yo.

I've met Lou Castle, nice guy, talks a lot, I like the way my dog works better. I find his use of an e collar to be fair. He advocates initial learning in conjunction with a leash and low stim.

 

[Nigel]

You might also be interested in researching Larry Krohn. I believe his business is called Pak Masters.

I researched both Castle and Krohn before deciding on going with correcting for (disregarding) known commands. I was hesitant at first, however both of the gsds I've used e with have done very well with it. I've have/had two other gsds that I would not consider good candidates. Talking to a trainer that uses e collars, but not as the only tool in their toolbox might not be a bad idea, especially if your new to them. E collars are great tools used correctly, they can also create problems that weren't there before.

 

[David Winners]

I'm definitely not Lou, but I've successfully used his protocols on a lot of dogs. If you have questions, please ask and I'll do what I can to answer them.

As Nigel mentioned, Larry Krohn is also a great resource. He has an informative YouTube channel.

 

[cdwoodcox]

Anyone know why lou's site is down. I only used his method to train recall. But it was very easy to understand and worked flawlessly.

 

[Steve Strom]

Thank you for the information. I did a small overview and it looks like a GREAT resource so I've bookmarked it and will start reading through. And yea, I'm not rushing into anything. She's doing great, but want to become more educated about it. I definitely teeter back and forth on the topic.

That shows your basic escape/avoidance training. Dog complies and learns the e stops, dog complies to stop the e, dog complies to avoid the e. The other basic use is what Nigel mentioned, a correction for non compliance of a known command. Dogs naturally understand the connection of a leash to you, or reward from you. Dogs don't understand what e is. You have to teach them what it is first, with either use. People can use it to finesse some things, create an association to something to stop it, lots of different things depending on the dog and you're skill at applying it.

But no matter what, its still going to come down to dog training. Concentrate on training your puppy and not on what tool you use. Its the behavior that matters.

 

[Slamdunc]

I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.

For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.

His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.

 

[tim_s_adams]

I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.

For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.

His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.

Have you ever trained a hound or other hunting dog? I agree with you 100% for most GSDs, and maybe nearly that percentage for most non-hunting breeds. But negative reinforcement was the primary method used for most all hunting dogs I've worked with...and it was very effective. So I'm curious Jim, are you saying this in general, or have you seen more effective training methods used on hunting breeds that I'm just not aware of?

 

[mycobraracr]

That shows your basic escape/avoidance training. Dog complies and learns the e stops, dog complies to stop the e, dog complies to avoid the e. The other basic use is what Nigel mentioned, a correction for non compliance of a known command. Dogs naturally understand the connection of a leash to you, or reward from you. Dogs don't understand what e is. You have to teach them what it is first, with either use. People can use it to finesse some things, create an association to something to stop it, lots of different things depending on the dog and you're skill at applying it.

But no matter what, its still going to come down to dog training. Concentrate on training your puppy and not on what tool you use. Its the behavior that matters.

^^^This is sound advice.

As some others mentioned, I wouldn't have started out using Lou's method. That was until I started training dogs full time. Some dogs just are not motivated and his methods are what works for me in those cases. I will also add, that when I was having an e-collar training issue with one of my dogs a few years ago, I messaged Lou and he called me that very day, spoke to me for hours and really helped me out. At the end of the day, I'd find a trainer and follow their lead. Tools are only useful in the hands of those who know how to use them.

 

[cdwoodcox]

I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.

For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.

His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.

I would rather see someone using low level stim than a prong, choke or even a flat collar yanking and cranking on the dog. Stim is much less damaging to the dog.
I never bothered with using stim to teach sit, down, or any other basic commands. If the dog doesn't sit or down it usually isn't a life threatening situation. Recall on the other hand is one of those things that if it isn't bomb proof could lead to a dog being killed. So using a little discomfort to guarantee he recalls is 100% worth it.

 

[lhczth]

I should clarify that when I use Lou's methods I use them to introduce the collar to a dog that already understands sit, down, come, etc.

 

[David Winners]

I'm not a fan of using compulsion to teach behaviors, IME it is a poor and lazy way to train. I would not advocate the methods of using "stim" at any level to teach a dog to sit or recall. Sorry, his stuff is not for me.

For the novices that are looking into this approach, please be aware that you causing discomfort at best and pain at worst to teach very simple behaviors. Low level stim is a nice way of saying discomfort.

His methods may work for some dogs, but it is not the approach or methodology that I would use to train ay of my dogs.

I teach behaviors/positions using markers, with the exception of leash pressure with a prong. I reinforce and proof behaviors with the e-collar.

I use Lou's crittering protocol for reactive dogs as well.

ETA: Lou himself suggests that you initially teach positions using other techniques.