[The_Passenger]

Last night, my 2 GSD's that I've had for about 2 weeks attacked my cat.

The dogs are well trained, they are 5 years old but had no experience with cats or other dogs. Here's the post I made about them: Post

They have been very well behaved with me and my wife. They respond very well to commands and our voices, and haven't show any aggression or irritability. They have nipped at our 2.5 year old boy a few times, but only when we would lift him up suddenly or hang him upside down or spin around. I think they were nipping more out of concern and worry, not aggression.

I have been trying to expose them to our cat gradually. I will hold the cat and tell them "soft" and "leave it" and they will stay away, but they are extremely focused on the cat whenever they know where he is. If I am not between them, they will go towards the cat, but they'll do a 180 if I tell them to leave it.

So, I had planned on continuing to work with them and expose them more over time, but last night I was in bed with a migraine headache, and the dogs were sleeping in the room with me, door always shut (cat and dog are never exposed together, I am always holding the car, or there's a shut door between them). My wife came in and the dogs must have seen the cat in the hall, because they bolted out and got him.

According to her, they just frenzied on him for a few seconds before she could really control them. As soon as she came in, she yelled "leave it" and they did stop their frenzy, but you could tell they were hyped up over it.

So, the cat didn't move all night, and there was no blood anywhere. We took him to the vet and the vet said he seemed to have no serious injury, but he probably was crushed pretty good and is probably pretty banged up. The cat still won't move/walk but he's not paralyzed or permanently injured.

So this morning, the dogs instantly ran back to the scene of the crime to sniff around and get all excited, to which I ordered them to leave the room to not give them the chance to get riled up again.

But what should I do? I had hoped that I could condition them to leave the cat alone while I am around, and when I am not I'd keep them separated. But now I am scared of what the dogs can do. And also what they might do to the 2.5 year old boy.

Granted, my toddler plays around them, is totally unphased by their presence and not scared at all. He doesn't interact with them, and they don't try to interact with him, they give him a wide berth and don't go near him. So I am not concerned about their behavior with humans. But I really like this cat and don't want to expose him to danger if the dogs are going to be a problem.

The dogs are staying, so if someone has to leave, it's the cat. What should I do? Keep trying to train them? Is there a way to flood them and desensitize them? Should I use an E-collar? Or is this just one of those things where the cat might need a new home?

Is it odd that they didn't kill the cat? They didn't seem to break the skin either (no blood anywhere), but they appeared to have bit down pretty hard (the cat was literally drenched in dog saliva).

I really love this cat, but I can't play referee for the rest of their lives, it's just impossible to foresee every situation where the dogs might slip free and just break his neck in an instant.

Please help me figure this out!

 

[jake]

Who trained the dogs.Where they together before you got them.What do you intend to do with these dogs -are they pets-protection something else.Rehome the cat if it survives and please do NOT roughouse with your son in front of these dogs.This can be very serious if dog has already 'nipped'.More info please.

 

[Liesje]

Did you just get these dogs? My main concern is that there are two of them and they have the same interest. I'd hate for them to pester cats and feed off each others' behaviors.

I have a 4yo GSD and she doesn't care about my cats AT ALL, in fact, if they want her food she leaves the bowl or if they jump on the couch she jumps off. My younger dog chased cats and still chases them from time to time. We've had him 8 months and we are still working on it. The nice thing is that by now, the cats have figured out that he won't chase if they don't run. But really the improvements are because the cats are no longer running, not so much because he has less desire to chase them.

What I have done is created several "safe" zones for the cat:

* cat door to the basement, ONLY CATS allowed in the basement
* ledge in the living room, Coke can't reach
* cats allowed to jump up on the table or the entertainment center to escape dog
* cats can fit under the bed, dog can't
* baby gate blocking dogs from the dining room, but cats can get under or jump over
* large (7") cat "tree" with boxes and ledges that the dog can't reach

I will never 100% trust ANY dog with a cat. I do not allow the dogs and the cats to sleep in our room together. The dogs sleep with us and the cats have to stay out. When the dog chases the cats, I yell "no bad boy!" He's a rather wimpy dog so a harsh verbal correction is enough to stop him. If he does it repeatedly, he gets a chill out in the crate. If I need to keep them all apart, I get the cats in the basement and block the cat door.

 

[GSDOwner2008]

What sex are the dogs and the cat? I know that my two GSDs like to play with Baby, my female spayed Cat, but we have to keep them away from Rhett, the intact male. In my case it's testosterone(sp?) fueled fight for dominance, which I'm sure Rhett would get hurt. It also helps that my cats are outside cats, and only come in during bad weather, and sometimes at night because they love it outside.

 

[BlackGSD]

Personally I would KEEP the cat (if it survives) and send the dogs back to the origional owners. Not only are they cat "attackers" and the cat was there FIRST, but even worse, they are biting at your CHILD. And lets face it "nipping" is the SAME thing as biting. What happens if they do the same thing to your CHILD as they did to the cat?

Did the vet take x-rays of the cat?

 

[Sean Rescue Mom]

I presume since you've only had your 2 gsd's about 2 wks. that your cat was there first. If this is the case then it is not only traumatic for the cat to occupy his/her territory with the dogs but to be attacked as well. Does the cat have all it's claws? Felines are territorial and sometimes do not do well when rehomed, it all depends on the situation. You stated that you really love the cat but on the other hand if someone has to leave it will be the cat. For the time being you will have to give the cat extra attention and make absolutely sure he/she does not come in contact with the dogs. Take time, watch your cat's behavior since you said the cat will not move/walk and create a 100% completely safe area for the cat. I would not suggest rehoming the cat right away since this would only be more traumatic for the cat.

 

[The_Passenger]

Originally Posted By: ttalldogWho trained the dogs.Where they together before you got them.What do you intend to do with these dogs -are they pets-protection something else.Rehome the cat if it survives and please do NOT roughouse with your son in front of these dogs.This can be very serious if dog has already 'nipped'.More info please.

the dogs were trained by their original owners. They have been together since birth. The dogs are intended to be family companions and have done so well.

The nipping at the child, that only happened when my wife was swinging our kid around in the back yard, and the male dog sort of got nervous and was watching them, like he was afraid for the child or something. Like I was saying, the dogs keep a wide berth with the child. They only approach him when I call them and have them sniff his feet or whatever, and even then they are super cautious, they don't show any aggression or even energy/interest.

Originally Posted By: LiesjeDid you just get these dogs? My main concern is that there are two of them and they have the same interest. I'd hate for them to pester cats and feed off each others' behaviors.
tree" with boxes and ledges that the dog can't reach

Yes I've had the dogs for about 10 days now. I did about a week long interview with the previous owners and they had me visit the dogs at their house a few times, and the dogs came here a few times. The owners legitimately and honestly cannot keep the dogs, we spoke at length about their situation, so giving them back isn't an option, nor is it something I want to do.

Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008What sex are the dogs and the cat?

The dogs are male and female fixed littermates, and the cat is a male, fixed.

Originally Posted By: BlackGSDPersonally I would KEEP the cat (if it survives) and send the dogs back to the origional owners. Not only are they cat "attackers" and the cat was there FIRST, but even worse, they are biting at your CHILD. And lets face it "nipping" is the SAME thing as biting. What happens if they do the same thing to your CHILD as they did to the cat?

Did the vet take x-rays of the cat?

The original owners don't have a place for the dogs. They were dedicated owners, but they had a very bad turn of events in their business and lost all their money and homes, cars, and now are moving to live with their adult children across state in a basement apartment.

The cat is going to be okay, for some reason they didn't injure it as much as they could have. I think they thought it was a game. I mean a 20 lb cat survived a tussle with 2 95 lb German Shepherds. The vet was shocked it was still alive and in relative good shape. No broken bones, no blood.

As far as the kid, I really don't think they would attack or play rough with him. They have NEVER been played rough with by humans, their previous owners were 100% calm and gentle with them. I watch them very closely with the child, and they honestly don't give him any attention. He is playing loud, throwing toys, crying, singing, shouting, and they barley look up at him or lift their heads from their nap.

I know you are giving good advice, and believe me I wouldn't put my child in harms way. But right now I fully believe that this was a Dog/Rodent issue and not a Dog/Aggression or Dog/Human issue. When introduced to humans properly, they've been nothing but exemplary.

How much exposure and training time do I need to do with them a the cat before I decide if they just have too much prey drive for small rodent-like animals?

 

[The_Passenger]

Originally Posted By: Sean Rescue MomI presume since you've only had your 2 gsd's about 2 wks. that your cat was there first. If this is the case then it is not only traumatic for the cat to occupy his/her territory with the dogs but to be attacked as well. Does the cat have all it's claws? Felines are territorial and sometimes do not do well when rehomed, it all depends on the situation. You stated that you really love the cat but on the other hand if someone has to leave it will be the cat. For the time being you will have to give the cat extra attention and make absolutely sure he/she does not come in contact with the dogs. Take time, watch your cat's behavior since you said the cat will not move/walk and create a 100% completely safe area for the cat. I would not suggest rehoming the cat right away since this would only be more traumatic for the cat.

I found the cat in my backyard about 3 years ago, starved to death and completely emaciated. Literally skin and bones and on deaths door. Neutered and declawed, too. I put up a flyer in our neighborhood, but no one claimed him.

the cat is pretty agreeable. He instantly bonds with strangers and people at my house. I said he could be rehomed first because he's so agreeable, I figure he'd adjust easily and quickly, like he did with us.

The dogs are really great too, this isn't their fault. I am assuming they thought it was a wild rabbit or raccoon and treated it the same way. They haven't learned it's MY rodent/small mammal.

I can keep them separated easy enough, we have a huge walled yard and plenty of places inside for the cat. I still want to try and condition the dogs to leave the cat alone, and then separate them when I am gone. We have a cat door into the laundry room where the cat has its box and food/water.

How does one effectively condition a dog to leave a cat alone, and extinct his behavior of chasing/playing rough with it?

 

[longhairshepmom]

Poor Cat !!!

DID the vet xray the cat ?

IMHO attacking small animals is completely un-acceptable. Again and again I come across people that say, oh well, dogs will be dogs, they have a preydrive, yada yada.

I say BS. Of course most dogs have a preydrive. Most dogs used to hunt for food, too.

Well, nowadays dogs live with us in our home and have to abide by our rules. Problem with that, sometimes the rules aren't made crystal clear to the dog/s.

Esp. with a "pack" of dogs (more then one) they can feed of one another.

They have nipped at your toddler ??? OMG, and you haven't addressed that yet other then with "leave it" ???

If my dog had even so much as thought of nipping at my child for whatever reason (I didn't allow my child to torture animals and she never has, either) he would have thought the world has come to an end for a few minutes !!

Trust me, its not "concern" they feel for the child when they nip him. They see you are playing rough with that little one, and they want to "join in".

I find it sad that you have already made up your mind that the cat has to go. In my opinion your mind should be at making the dogs understand what they can and cannot do. If you dont' think you can accomplish that, how can you feel comfortable with them around your small child ? Just because nothing has happend yet, doesn't mean it won't. They have just gotten a taste of "how fun" it can be to chase and maul the "small ones". Should your toddler ever decide to play with them and RUN from them in fun, they might get to excited and tragedy will ensue. And it only takes a minute.

My dogs aren't allowed to kill. Period. Double Period. I have a german shepherd, a bulldog and a chihuahua and they all live by the same rules. The humans in the house are the #1, the leader. (incl. my daughter)

The dogs are ALL #2. There is no #2 , #3, #4, nope. They are equal. They look to me for leadership and guidance and I make sure that I keep them safe and don't allow any bullying or whatever. They do not even have to worry their minds about anything like that.

Makes for a peaceful home and a happy pack. I had baby rodents, birds, cats, even a tiny snapping turtle running around, and they weren't harmed. A couple of the dogs "thought about it" when young, but they were taught that they were NOT to kill. And once they have clear leadership and they are taught well and thoroughly, they won't even question it.

I'm sure my opinion won't be the popular one. Many believe its "ok" for dogs to have preydrive and kill smaller animals. To me its not ok, because where does it stop? Mouse? Squirrel? Cat? Small dog? crawling baby? Toddler ?

Sorry, its not worth the risk to me.

Change your attitude. Your dogs are the villains, and they are because they haven't been taught any better. A simple "leave it" accomplishes nothing other then that they will momentarily "leave" and come back later.

You owe that cat and your child to put more into it then that. Hire a trainer and a behaviorist to come to your house and work with the dogs and the cat and teach you to show the dogs that ALL humans are #1. And that the dogs have to mind the rules put down by you and how you can accomplish that.

By holding the cat all the time and telling them to get off, you are only teaching them that it must be fun to play with the cat, but its not "their turn" right then.

The cat must be allowed to walk freely while you should control the dogs at that time, not the cat.

Poor cat...

 

[Sean Rescue Mom]

Originally Posted By: The_PassengerHow does one effectively condition a dog to leave a cat alone, and extinct his behavior of chasing/playing rough with it?

For starters the cat will need some down time first. As far as introducing them again, the dogs should be introduced separtely to the cat, both dogs at the same time would be too much. Then put the dog on a leash so you have total control. I know that others on the board have put their gsd in a crate and let the cat roam around. We did not do it that way but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. This is not a quick fix as I'm sure you know. If you do a search on the board I'm sure you will come up with many similar cat being introduced to dog situations. I do believe that some dogs/cats will never be bosom buddies. I would like to suggest that since you found the cat and he has bonded with you for 3 yrs. it would be worthwhile to try and make things work out. All the best of luck.

 

[TMarie]

Originally Posted By: longhairshepmomPoor Cat !!!

DID the vet xray the cat ?

IMHO attacking small animals is completely un-acceptable. Again and again I come across people that say, oh well, dogs will be dogs, they have a preydrive, yada yada.

I say BS. Of course most dogs have a preydrive. Most dogs used to hunt for food, too.

Well, nowadays dogs live with us in our home and have to abide by our rules. Problem with that, sometimes the rules aren't made crystal clear to the dog/s.

Esp. with a "pack" of dogs (more then one) they can feed of one another.

They have nipped at your toddler ??? OMG, and you haven't addressed that yet other then with "leave it" ???

If my dog had even so much as thought of nipping at my child for whatever reason (I didn't allow my child to torture animals and she never has, either) he would have thought the world has come to an end for a few minutes !!

Trust me, its not "concern" they feel for the child when they nip him. They see you are playing rough with that little one, and they want to "join in".

I find it sad that you have already made up your mind that the cat has to go. In my opinion your mind should be at making the dogs understand what they can and cannot do. If you dont' think you can accomplish that, how can you feel comfortable with them around your small child ? Just because nothing has happend yet, doesn't mean it won't. They have just gotten a taste of "how fun" it can be to chase and maul the "small ones". Should your toddler ever decide to play with them and RUN from them in fun, they might get to excited and tragedy will ensue. And it only takes a minute.

My dogs aren't allowed to kill. Period. Double Period. I have a german shepherd, a bulldog and a chihuahua and they all live by the same rules. The humans in the house are the #1, the leader. (incl. my daughter)

The dogs are ALL #2. There is no #2 , #3, #4, nope. They are equal. They look to me for leadership and guidance and I make sure that I keep them safe and don't allow any bullying or whatever. They do not even have to worry their minds about anything like that.

Makes for a peaceful home and a happy pack. I had baby rodents, birds, cats, even a tiny snapping turtle running around, and they weren't harmed. A couple of the dogs "thought about it" when young, but they were taught that they were NOT to kill. And once they have clear leadership and they are taught well and thoroughly, they won't even question it.

I'm sure my opinion won't be the popular one. Many believe its "ok" for dogs to have preydrive and kill smaller animals. To me its not ok, because where does it stop? Mouse? Squirrel? Cat? Small dog? crawling baby? Toddler ?

Sorry, its not worth the risk to me.

Change your attitude. Your dogs are the villains, and they are because they haven't been taught any better. A simple "leave it" accomplishes nothing other then that they will momentarily "leave" and come back later.

You owe that cat and your child to put more into it then that. Hire a trainer and a behaviorist to come to your house and work with the dogs and the cat and teach you to show the dogs that ALL humans are #1. And that the dogs have to mind the rules put down by you and how you can accomplish that.

By holding the cat all the time and telling them to get off, you are only teaching them that it must be fun to play with the cat, but its not "their turn" right then.

The cat must be allowed to walk freely while you should control the dogs at that time, not the cat.

Poor cat...

When it comes to cats, you and I always seem to agree.
Excellent Post!

So, the cat didn't move all night, and there was no blood anywhere. We took him to the vet and the vet said he seemed to have no serious injury, but he probably was crushed pretty good and is probably pretty banged up. The cat still won't move/walk but he's not paralyzed or permanently injured.


/quote]

This worries me. If your vet did not take xrays or ultra sounds, and your cat is not moving, your vet has no way of knowing there are no internal injuries. I would be very concerned. Being a little banged up is one thing, but if he was crushed, and not running around normally, there can be something seriously wrong. The cat does not have to be bleeding on the outside for there to be internal injuries and suffering.

I also agree with the above poster. It is worth your while to try and make things work. The cat was there first. This has been the cats home for 3 years. I have five dogs, and a back yard full of feral cats that live here. My dogs are not cat friendly, and very prey driven, but, every one of my dogs have been worked extensively to not chase the cats, and they don't. They are never unattended in the back with the cats, with out me, but they can go out and chase a ball with all the ferals outside, and my dogs know, they best not chase one of those cats. It takes a heck of a lot of work and training, but it can be done. It is easier with a house cat.

Good luck. I hope your cat really is ok.

 

[GSDOwner2008]

Another way to introduce the cat and dogs to each other would be to hold the cat, and have one dog at a time come up and sniff the cat. Then in return, let the cat sniff the dogs. After that, for a few weeks you take a towel and let the cat play with it for a week. Take the towel, and let the dogs sniff it, and then let the dogs play with it for a week and give it back to the cat. Keep doing this until they are familiar with the scent, and then under careful supervision let one dog on a leash, and the cat into the same room. If done properly, they should ignore each other.

Aside from the above method, I just hold my cat, and I let Zeus and Apollo sniff her. Usually Apollo walks off, and Zeus will lick her a few times, but that doesn't mean he won't try to nip her when they're playing because he will! I call this playing because Baby will always instigate it. I never let Zeus chase her if she doesn't start it.

 

[mrgsdolch]

I dont think anyone is the villian and its ridiculus to say so. It was an accident that happened and I havent seen anyone say "oh its just a dog being a dog". Seems to me that he wants to help, but is also thinking about the fact he might have to rehome someone and, in his situation, the cat might be the easiest.

I think that, one, its only been two weeks. Not really enough time for an adjustment period.

I personally would like to hear from those on here who have dogs that hate cats. Personally I think it has more to do with prey drive regarding the cats and I think that regarding your child, while not really an aggression issue YET, I think its more of them doing, follow the leader so to speak. Kinda like, when the top dog will go and attack something, then the rest of the pack follows suit.

Again..I think its only been TWO WEEKS.

These are issues you need to address now and deal with and I think you are trying to do that. I would possibly look into a behavorist and/or OB trainer. While they may already know OB, it would be something fun for yall to do and would help bond, which could in the end help with these two situations. You can always look into books and training videos.

Again, its only been two weeks and they are bonded with each other tightly and stick close together. Yall really arent a pack yet imo.

I would continue to keep the dogs/cat apart and I would still do the leave it with the nipping but take it a step further and possibly remove them from the area all together.

Im sure that those on here who have dogs who dont like cats could probably give you some more detailed advice or direction on what to do next.

 

[The_Passenger]

I've been working with them and the cat since we got them. They had gotten pretty good at just sniffing the cat and not using their mouthes. And they respond to the verbal commands very well.

On this incident, I wasn't there when it happened, the dogs were already put outside by the time I was out of bed and with the cat. I would have fully let them understand the violation they had made if I had been there during the conditioning window. By the time I saw the dogs, they were happily sitting out in the yard enjoying the night.

Also, the Vet examined him and checked all his systems and said that and X-ray probably wasn't necessary. He didn't see any signs of internal bleeding or any organs that were out of order. He said if it was his cat, he'd give him the pain medication and antibiotics and wait a day, so I trust his judgment.

I am going to keep the cat and keep trying to get the dogs to adjust. I have never let the cat out of my site when dogs are free, and he's always up on a shelf or the fridge or somewhere safe he likes to be. And when he gets down, I escort him and continue to order the dogs to leave it. They have chased the cat a few times but have always stopped dead in the tracks when I shout at them to leave it. Just this time, my wife didn't know what was going on and let the dogs out of the bedroom to give them some attention, and the cat just happened to be roaming right there. If it'd been me, I'd have been aware of the situation.

I guess it was just more scary and sad. If you guys have training links or advice on this, I'd really like to get the dogs cat-friendly or at least tolerable.

 

[GSDOwner2008]

I'm not a huge fan of Leerburg by any means, but here is a link on his site which may prove to be a huge help to you.

http://www.leerburg.com/dog-cat.htm

 

[longhairshepmom]

Originally Posted By: mrgsdolchI dont think anyone is the villian and its ridiculus to say so. It was an accident that happened and I havent seen anyone say "oh its just a dog being a dog". Seems to me that he wants to help, but is also thinking about the fact he might have to rehome someone and, in his situation, the cat might be the easiest.

I said that the dogs are the villains in regard to what happend. As in, why should the cat have to leave, it was the dogs that attacked it. The cat had been there for 3 years and the dogs for 2 weeks. So in this particular event, yeah, the dogs were the ones causing the trouble.

It wasn't an accident. The cat didn't accidently fall into the dogs mouth and got chewed on accidently. The dogs intented to do what they did. It might have been an accident that the dogs weren't supervised at the moment, but the attack was just that, an attack.

I'm glad to see that the OP is re-considering rehoming the cat. It really didn't seem the right thing to do given the circumstances...

And yes, 2 weeks is not enough time to train the dogs and have them fit into the household perfectly.

 

[wrenny]

I think some people just use their words the wrong way and it might feel as an attack on the OP. I see it that way.

Anyways, the Op seems and is acting sincere, so please try not to accuse him for telling people the truth.

 

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008I'm not a huge fan of Leerburg by any means, but here is a link on his site which may prove to be a huge help to you.

http://www.leerburg.com/dog-cat.htm

Agree. Good link and note that holding the cat is not recommended. It is the dog that needs to be controlled.

I add a positive twist by rewarding heavily with hot dogs (or other meats), praise, etc. for ALL positive interactions, particularly IGNORING towards the cats with new dogs. Starting at a distance and working closer with the dog (individual dog) under my control on lead.

I have had fosters who would go and sit next to a cat quietly ignoring them so that they could get hot dogs! In fact, I overtrained one who would not leave the cat alone (in terms of proximity and ignoring) so that when she was adopted, they said she freaked the cat out sitting next to it all the time. When I first got her she wanted to take over, cats included, and wasn't what I would call "good" with the kitties. That is the phrase I use. Be nice to the kitty...

They also know failure to be nice to kitty is not something they want to be doing.

Separating the two dogs will help a lot, I would imagine.

As for the kid thing, unless you are REALLY Turid Rugaas good at reading dog body language, I would not be so ready to interpret those actions in that way-I would want someone else's input (good trainer) as well.

 

[longhairshepmom]

Originally Posted By: wrennyI think some people just use their words the wrong way and it might feel as an attack on the OP. I see it that way.

Anyways, the Op seems and is acting sincere, so please try not to accuse him for telling people the truth.

I'm not accusing the OP of anything. And I explained the use of the word "villain" already. I never said the dogs were bad.

I used the word as in "in every story there is a good guy and a villain"

In the story of the cats and the dogs, the dogs were the attackers and hurt the cat. So they were the "villain" in that regard. Thats all I meant and I think I made that clear.

Thats not accusing anyone of anything.

Some people just interpret words the wrong way.

I'm glad the OP decided to keep the cat and work on the dogs to learn the rules regarding the cat and the child. Rather then just giving the cat away which really doesn't solve the behavior issue.

 

[BowWowMeow]

The advice a trainer gave to me regarding a dog I had who chased my elderly cat:

Every single down the dog sees the cat, issue the same command (preferably down combined with another word like cat). Start this with the dogs on leash so that you have total control and with the cat at a distance. Draw the dog's attention to the cat and then issue the command. Reward profusely for executing the down. Pretty soon the dogs will start to associate the cat with the down command and when you say Cat or the dog sees the cat, they will automatically lie down in anticipation of the reward.

You will need to work on this separately with each dog. And I think you need to work the dogs separately a lot more, given they are also nipping at your son. It is important to understand that the two together are exhibiting a pack mentality and things can escalate very quickly under those circumstances.

Is there a good trainer in your area? I highly recommend doing some private sessions so that YOU can learn more and so that you can further your bond with them individually.