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Discussion Starter #41
I love how much you want to learn.
One thing that I would caution is to be wary of ANYONE stuck on a method. Every dog you meet will need something different from you and while there are some tried and true methods that work on a majority of dogs there will always be the dog that makes you step outside that comfort zone you built and learn new things.
The other thing to keep in mind is that dogs respond to different people in different ways, so the reaction of the dog may vary.
I watched the first video and I would not have done anything he did, for a couple of different reasons. Most owners muzzle their dogs when bad things are going to happen, things the dog does not like. So you have conditioned the dog to fight when the muzzle comes out, which is what the dog in the video did. The catch pole is almost guaranteed to provoke a fight in a feisty dog.
The video showed a trainer looking for instant gratification and with way over the top energy for dealing with a dog like that. Dogs like that one need calm, cool and collected. Just like spooky horses. I'm no trainer, but I would have found a million things to do in that room while ignoring the dog. Much like toddlers, if you have other stuff to do they want your attention and will come looking for it.
Calm, cool and collected. I totally agree. Yes, I will be careful.
I believe he did step outside the comfort zone to get the task of training that dog done. He said in his "lecture" of a talk (he is loooonnnggg-winded) that he had never dealt with such an intensive case of aggression and dominance, and that this would be a first for him. It seemed out of his comfort zone by the way he reacted, but he was still able to handle the dog calmly though nervous.
I don't understand your last paragraph. Could you rephrase that? I really don't understand what you are saying, but it sounds like something I would like to know, so please rephrase it.
I'll be gone for a week, so if I don't respond for a week you'll know why.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
I’m enjoying this thread. I have a reactive dog - mostly to strange dogs on leash. I like that David Winners pointed out Tyler Muto for online help. Thanks! I’ve made the decision to send my dog to Ivan Balabanov’s training center for a 3 week board and train. He needs more than my experience or videos can provide at this point. I drive to Tampa on January 5.
Good luck fixing the problem! Drive safe. :)
 

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Calm, cool and collected. I totally agree. Yes, I will be careful.
I believe he did step outside the comfort zone to get the task of training that dog done. He said in his "lecture" of a talk (he is loooonnnggg-winded) that he had never dealt with such an intensive case of aggression and dominance, and that this would be a first for him. It seemed out of his comfort zone by the way he reacted, but he was still able to handle the dog calmly though nervous.
I don't understand your last paragraph. Could you rephrase that? I really don't understand what you are saying, but it sounds like something I would like to know, so please rephrase it.
I'll be gone for a week, so if I don't respond for a week you'll know why.
I don't see that dog as overly aggressive or dominant. I see pushy, spoiled, edgy.
A toddler who's mom gets on the phone or tries to do something. Kid starts with the mom, mommy, mommy. Look at me! Mommy, mommy,watch me!
Dogs do the same thing. Ever hear Ceasar Milan? No look, no talk, no touch. It's one of the few things he got right.
I used to put Shadow out in the yard with me and start walking in circles or whatever. She would ignore me first, then she would start watching me, then she would follow me and start trying to get my attention. That moment is when you reward. Praise or treat, doesn't matter. Mark that behavior.
Dog in the video? I would have started sweeping the floor. Or doing my taxes. Maybe it takes all day. Maybe it takes two days. But the dog will come. Of it's own free will. Without the drama.
One quick thought. You said your dog is reactive, maybe you get a basket muzzle for walks? Makes you more relaxed and he associates a muzzle with good things.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I don't see that dog as overly aggressive or dominant. I see pushy, spoiled, edgy.
A toddler who's mom gets on the phone or tries to do something. Kid starts with the mom, mommy, mommy. Look at me! Mommy, mommy,watch me!
Dogs do the same thing. Ever hear Ceasar Milan? No look, no talk, no touch. It's one of the few things he got right.
I used to put Shadow out in the yard with me and start walking in circles or whatever. She would ignore me first, then she would start watching me, then she would follow me and start trying to get my attention. That moment is when you reward. Praise or treat, doesn't matter. Mark that behavior.
Dog in the video? I would have started sweeping the floor. Or doing my taxes. Maybe it takes all day. Maybe it takes two days. But the dog will come. Of it's own free will. Without the drama.
One quick thought. You said your dog is reactive, maybe you get a basket muzzle for walks? Makes you more relaxed and he associates a muzzle with good things.
Wow. Great statement. I'm going to try that with my dog Kias. I bet I will get him to pay attention better. Right now, his focus is so bad I can't get him to look so that I can mark the behavior! Time for training!
Just learned from Jax08 about dominant dogs. Yes, dominant dogs are RARE. That one was aggressive, which means: then the trainer misinterpreted the behavior problems...which means he also misinterpreted the dog itself...which means he distributed a misinterpreted punishment...which means he made a big, very dangerous mistake. Which means the dog may not be truly fixed..which means he is still a very dangerous, very disobedient dog inside, even though not outside.

Big statement, but it's a big problem. Time to find someone else to watch!

Thanks for all the input, everyone!

Okay, my dog is NOT that reactive. He doesn't need a muzzle. He's a little puppy just learning to behave.
In fact, he just made a big break-through today by staying quietly beside me, not hair raised, as I talked to the mailman. Voluntarily sitting beside me, no prongs needed to keep him there. Perfectly calm and composed. I was SOOOOOOOO exited and proud! It was literally the first breakthrough with his socialization.

Yesterday, he sat quietly as a pit-bull on the other side of the street stared and snarled. Hair raised, but no noise. Again, no prongs. Finally a headway...
 

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Wow. Great statement. I'm going to try that with my dog Kias. I bet I will get him to pay attention better. Right now, his focus is so bad I can't get him to look so that I can mark the behavior! Time for training!
Just learned from Jax08 about dominant dogs. Yes, dominant dogs are RARE. That one was aggressive, which means: then the trainer misinterpreted the behavior problems...which means he also misinterpreted the dog itself...which means he distributed a misinterpreted punishment...which means he made a big, very dangerous mistake. Which means the dog may not be truly fixed..which means he is still a very dangerous, very disobedient dog inside, even though not outside.

Big statement, but it's a big problem. Time to find someone else to watch!

Thanks for all the input, everyone!

Okay, my dog is NOT that reactive. He doesn't need a muzzle. He's a little puppy just learning to behave.
In fact, he just made a big break-through today by staying quietly beside me, not hair raised, as I talked to the mailman. Voluntarily sitting beside me, no prongs needed to keep him there. Perfectly calm and composed. I was SOOOOOOOO exited and proud! It was literally the first breakthrough with his socialization.

Yesterday, he sat quietly as a pit-bull on the other side of the street stared and snarled. Hair raised, but no noise. Again, no prongs. Finally a headway...
Haha! My muzzle suggestion was to teach your pup that the muzzle is a good thing. It goes on for fun things. That way if he proves to need one, for say a vet visit, he doesn't associate it with bad things but with good things.
For attention, squeaky toys are great. Let him know you have it, then say his name. The second he glanced at you mark it and toss the toy. While you are just hanging out say his name. When he looks at you mark it and reward. Baby steps with baby puppies.
 

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Wow. Great statement. I'm going to try that with my dog Kias. I bet I will get him to pay attention better. Right now, his focus is so bad I can't get him to look so that I can mark the behavior! Time for training!
Just learned from Jax08 about dominant dogs. Yes, dominant dogs are RARE. That one was aggressive, which means: then the trainer misinterpreted the behavior problems...which means he also misinterpreted the dog itself...which means he distributed a misinterpreted punishment...which means he made a big, very dangerous mistake. Which means the dog may not be truly fixed..which means he is still a very dangerous, very disobedient dog inside, even though not outside.

Big statement, but it's a big problem. Time to find someone else to watch!

Thanks for all the input, everyone!

Okay, my dog is NOT that reactive. He doesn't need a muzzle. He's a little puppy just learning to behave.
In fact, he just made a big break-through today by staying quietly beside me, not hair raised, as I talked to the mailman. Voluntarily sitting beside me, no prongs needed to keep him there. Perfectly calm and composed. I was SOOOOOOOO exited and proud! It was literally the first breakthrough with his socialization.

Yesterday, he sat quietly as a pit-bull on the other side of the street stared and snarled. Hair raised, but no noise. Again, no prongs. Finally a headway...
I like watching videos too, but keep in mind that videos only show you what someone wants you to see. There's a huge limit on how much help they can be when it comes to problems. Great advice I got from someone who's a lot better then Youtube anyone, is to think about "What are you going to do when that doesn't work?" No video can cover exactly why something didn't work for every person and dog.

Dogs learn from repetition. For the most part you teach things in small pieces and then put them together. Something really simple to do with your pup would be to concentrate on one thing only for a while and do your best to get it as close to perfect and happily done by your dog as you can. Success leads to more success and builds trust and that makes them more willing to always obey. That great sit can lead to a great down and so on,,,,,,
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Haha! My muzzle suggestion was to teach your pup that the muzzle is a good thing. It goes on for fun things. That way if he proves to need one, for say a vet visit, he doesn't associate it with bad things but with good things.
For attention, squeaky toys are great. Let him know you have it, then say his name. The second he glanced at you mark it and toss the toy. While you are just hanging out say his name. When he looks at you mark it and reward. Baby steps with baby puppies.
@SabisMom: Great suggestion! I will definitely try! After Christmas, of course. (ha, ha)


I like watching videos too, but keep in mind that videos only show you what someone wants you to see. There's a huge limit on how much help they can be when it comes to problems. Great advice I got from someone who's a lot better then Youtube anyone, is to think about "What are you going to do when that doesn't work?" No video can cover exactly why something didn't work for every person and dog.

Dogs learn from repetition. For the most part you teach things in small pieces and then put them together. Something really simple to do with your pup would be to concentrate on one thing only for a while and do your best to get it as close to perfect and happily done by your dog as you can. Success leads to more success and builds trust and that makes them more willing to always obey. That great sit can lead to a great down and so on,,,,,,
@SteveStrom: Thanks for giving me that input. I heard that dogs are creatures of repetition and habit. I did notice that all the videos i was watching on "coming when called" weren't able to tell me how to fix when he doesn't come. Just an example on what you were saying. Anyway, thanks.
 

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Oh. Okay. Did I say something wrong? Sorry about that; I'm just saying what I believe.
Just curious: Have you ever worked with dogs like that, Slamdunc and that's how you know? I guess you are probably on of the few if you have.

This trainer is still learning and this was probably his first meeting with a dog like that, as he indicates in his talking. That's why I made those comments. If I offended anyone at all, I'm really sorry about that.
Hello, welcome to the forum. You have absolutely not said anything wrong. We al have our opinions, feelings and beliefs based on our experiences with dogs. There are many experienced people on this forum that are going to offer their insights and opinions. It's a great place to share information, just keep an open mind.

Yes, I work with dogs like that all the time. I have owned some really tough dogs over the years and still do. I teach dogs to muzzle fight and to be very aggressive when muzzle fighting. I only watched the video once, but one thing I noticed was that the dog was more aggressive when the muzzle was on then when it was off. Many dogs become "muzzle happy" or aggressive when a muzzle is put on them. Because they are expecting something unpleasant is going to happen and associate the muzzle with vets offices, aggression training, etc.

That dog did not appear to be super dominant to me, he has just gotten away with behaviors by showing aggression and posturing. I'm sure the dog will bite someone, no doubt. However, a good handler could easily control that dog and minimizes those outbursts.

Here is one thing that I have learned over the years, you pick your battles with aggressive dogs. You set the dog up for success and reward the correct behaviors. Be very wary of Ego, it is a really bad thing in life and especially in dog training / handling. If you feel it is time to correct a behavior or finally challenge a dog, ensure that you are capable of winning and winning quickly. I prefer not to fight with aggressive dogs, I prefer to work positively and reward behaviors. I will not show a dog that I am frustrated, furious or afraid. I will show emotion when I am happy and sometimes briefly if I am angry. For example, if a dog comes up the leash at me, I will immediately give it a negative marker, strong verbal command followed by a strong correction that should instantly stop the aggressive behavior. Then a command the dog knows like sit or down. As soon as the dog sits or downs, the dog is praised for performing that command. No matter how much I am bleeding or how angry I am. Once the dog performs correctly, even 2 seconds later it is praised for correct performance. Everything is black and white. The dog was corrected very clearly for inappropriate aggression and immediately praised for the correct behavior. Then regardless of how angry I am on the inside, I move on and it's over. Dog's live in the moment. Getting angry, yelling, alpha rolls, screaming all shows the dog that I have lost control and I am not in charge. I'd rather stand next to my dog and smile and say "knock it off" very calmly and matter of factly and then show the dog I am capable of stopping the behavior. The picture the dog gets is that I am not impressed by the aggressive behavior, not afraid, not phased and I'm very calmly going to stop it from happening again.

Overall, the video was good. I'm not big into staring dogs down until they look away as he tried to do. Eye contact is a challenge and the serious dogs, the truly dominate dogs will not look away. Instead, they will rise to the challenge and one of my dogs would have flatten him just for the eye contact. The eye contact invites a fight and the truly tough dogs do not growl, bark or vocalize, they launch and do not stop. I teach eye contact as a way of communicating, my dogs all make focused eye contact with me. However, with little provocation or warning they will react aggressively to a stranger that tries to stare them down. I guarantee they will not look away. I look for little things in these videos and watch with a critical eye. These are just my observations and certainly does not mean the guy is not a good trainer. If you get something out of his videos that is awesome.

I will try to post a video of my current dog working in a muzzle, you will see what a strong dog does when aggression is appropriate.
 

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Hi Slamdunc,

I know you have a ton of experience with hard and dominant dogs.

I was curious of what sort of behaviors do you see from dogs that you consider highly dominant or rank?

Do you see the dog in the video as having some degree of rank drive which has been fed by the owner's lack of knowledge, leadership, and boundaries?

With my very limited experience, this dog looks like it may have a genetic propensity for handler aggression if not handled correctly. I think this is too much dog for this particular owner.

I haven't watched any other videos of this trainer yet, but perhaps he is a little apprehensive because he doesn't trust that muzzle - since it came off once already. Not really trying to make excuses for him because I agree with your analysis.
Hello,
I'm sure he was nervous because the muzzle came off once, but once it was on he should have relaxed.

I agree this dog has learned that aggression works to get his way. This only gets worse and causes more handler aggression. The dog is way too much for that owner.
 

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Are you talking about me? Oh goodness, I'd probably be scared to death dealing with a dog like that!
I don't mind dealing with horses, because I have studied on them much more and I can interpret their body language, but I have never gotten to the point where I understand dogs that well. I will soon though, since now i have a dog I need to learn to understand.
Ya, I just think for a 13 year old you carry yourself really well and you are eager to seek knowledge

You have the temperament that is necessary to handle tough dogs including some of the big dogs on this forum lol :)

I just remember how immature I was at 13 ... I was such a dumby and there are people who could argue that I'm still an idiot :ROFLMAO:

Nobody really likes handler aggression but not all tough dogs are handler aggressive

Best of luck to you and thanks for posting that video because I like looking at all information (y)
 

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That is a very good video and shows what I was talking about. You can see that Harve is not afraid and does not flinch. That is a strong, seriously aggressive dog. Notice the wrapping of the legs and the persistent pushing. That is a dog that would bite for real. A far tougher, harder and more aggressive dog than the GSD in the original video.
 

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That is a dog that would bite for real. A far tougher, harder and more aggressive dog than the GSD in the original video.
I love watching Harve's videos. You can really see the difference between a truly aggressive dog - like the video above - and a dog that is .. what I call 'bluffing'. They act all big and scary when with their owners and then when the owner leaves - very different dog. Like this one:

 

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Hey all. I was reading through this and noticed that nobody brought up Jeff Gellman (Solid K9). I've looked at a lot of training videos too and haven't really tried anything from them (I take the "don't try this yourself" thing seriously and prefer to go with what my own trainer says), but Solid K9 comes up a LOT when you do google searches and I'm just curious what you all think.
 

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Hey all. I was reading through this and noticed that nobody brought up Jeff Gellman (Solid K9). I've looked at a lot of training videos too and haven't really tried anything from them (I take the "don't try this yourself" thing seriously and prefer to go with what my own trainer says), but Solid K9 comes up a LOT when you do google searches and I'm just curious what you all think.
He just had his membership to IACP revoked after outcry against abusive methods.
 

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I think Jeff Gellman is very smart at promoting himself...hence why he comes up so much..

I wouldn't let him within a mile of any dog I cared about. In my opinion he is way too hard on the dogs and cares way too little about their welfare. I have never met him or seen him do anything in person, but based on what he freely shares online I would not ever seek him out
 

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And IACP is the training org that supports balanced trainers and all tools, unlike for instance CPDT which is mostly force free although they did change their position statement on e collars. I know of a CPDT who offers e collar training openly now which in the old days I am pretty sure would have gotten your membership revoked
 

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Hey all. I was reading through this and noticed that nobody brought up Jeff Gellman (Solid K9). I've looked at a lot of training videos too and haven't really tried anything from them (I take the "don't try this yourself" thing seriously and prefer to go with what my own trainer says), but Solid K9 comes up a LOT when you do google searches and I'm just curious what you all think.
I wouldn't never let him touch one of my dogs. He is popular in some circles and very good at promoting himself. I've watched some of his videos and they are hard to watch. He does get "results" but not with methods I would ever want used on my dogs. I am not against using corrections, but what he does is IMO abuse, not good training.
 

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Gotcha. Yeah I had a feeling...he seemed pretty heavy-handed. And yeeah there must be some way people can manipulate google to always bring them up. I was trying to find videos about dog illnesses some time ago and all that was coming up was ridiculous, unhelpful little powerpoints of a robot voice narrating something from wikipedia.
 

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Gellman and his partners do a LOT of work with certain problem breeds. People who own those breeds seek him out and that creates a lot of traffic to him on the internet which in turn makes him pop up a lot on searches.
 
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