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We have had several cases near me in PA over the last couple of years...one a large group of GSD's that starved to death in a windowless building until one escaped and led people back to the building to save the ones left. The news reports are horrific.

Our local police and humane officer (a retired LEO from Maryland) do not screw around. If they find neglected animals they are seized. the proper channels must be followed. You can't just steal animals. First, because that is illegal but more importantly, the proper officials need to be involved so charges are pressed.
 

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There is not one member on this board that has a dog, that I could not manufacture a reason to justify stealing their dog.

The dog is over-weight.
The dog is under-weight.
The dog is fed raw -- the poor thing, subjected to salmonella and yuck!
The dog is fed kibble -- the poor thing. all the garbage in kibble and how boring!
The dog is fed home-made -- the owners can't be canine nutritionists so they are probably not feeding properly!
The dog has a prong collar.
The dog has a shock collar.
The dog is used for breeding.
The dog is prevented from breeding.
They are going to spay or neuter the dog.
They are not going to spay or neuter the dog.
The dog spends hours in a crate.
The dog spends hours in a kennel.
The dog is chained.
The owners do not train the dog.
The owners force the dog to do agility, schutzhund, police k9 training, obedience, etc.
The dog is an only.
The dog is one of many.
And on and on and on.

It is NEVER ok to go outside the law and take someone's dog.

I do not know what it has to do with the price of rice in China that there was some yayhoo I hadn't heard of boarding and training dogs and neglecting them. Because he is from my state I guess makes me somewhat kin to him? If animal cruelty is not a felony in Ohio, then that is a problem. Last time I did arithmetic, two wrongs did not make a right.

No, I would not steal the dog from the man's kennels. Sorry. I wouldn't. I would not stop calling everyone and their brother, I would have seven different groups parked on the guys lawn, until the police and the news media WOULD have to take notice. But I would not remove the dogs.

Removing a dog from a nasty situation does save that dog, but it condemns another dog to take its place. It does not address the problem. It is an unintelligent and unimaginative temporary band-aid if the dog is actually stolen by an ignorant do-gooder. It is far better to go through the law, where the person is bothered, fined, charged, and so long as the situation, if it is a situation, is not resolved.

If animal control visits a property, sees the conditions, and the animal, and declares all is fine, then the people who have a problem need to mind their own business. Just because you feel it is best to perform major surgery on an elderly dog, it does not make another person an ogre for not having that surgery performed and to put the dog down when it is clear that it's quality of life is no longer acceptable. People have different feelings about all of these things. I personally think it is animal cruelty to try and save a dog that is burned over a large part of their body. I would put dogs out of their pain, and not force them to go through a painful recovery if the prognosis was poor. We all have different feelings about what is minimum care, what is right, what is wrong with respect to the treatment, feeding, care, containment, training of animals. By condoning the stealing of an animal because of one's personal beliefs about the treatment, is opening all of you to having your dogs justifiably stolen from you.

Unreal!
 

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I had to come out of semi forum retirement to say amen to that post Sue.
Lord spare us from self annointed moral authorities who think they know what is right for everyone.

My "truth" and what is "right" and someone else may be very different.
 

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Sue I brought up Ohio animal abuse laws because I thought it was ironic that you were advocating felony classification of dog theft when your state does not recognize animal abuse as a felony. I think you may of taken it personally which was not my intention.

Nitro's Law is something I supported and I did do some small work in order to try and get the law changed in your state.

Nitro Foundation - Nitrofoundation

So I guess one could say that generally I do try and work within the law and will try and change things legally that I think is wrong. I've seen more birthdays then I care to remember and I have never been arrested so it's safe to say that I'm either a very smart criminal or generally law abiding.

Not one of the reasons on your lists would cause me to break the law and jeopardize my future, but I would hope that you did know I was talking about extremes.

So yes I can see situations where I would go outside the law if need be. You don't. <shrug>

In an extreme situation this potential "ignorant do-gooder" would be comfortable breaking the law by helping the immediate dog that is being starved to death (as an example) while she continued to try and change the laws for theoretical future victims.

It's just not as black and white to me as it is to you. That's all.
 

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Betty, if we condone it for you, because we know you are a dog-person, and you will be reasonable, and you will not steal a dog just because it is in a kennel, or on a chain, or being trained with a training collar, or being fed raw food, than we must also give everyone else a free pass to steal dogs.

We just can't have it both ways. We cannot condone it for some people to go outside of the law and illegally rescue animals. I will NEVER condone it for anyone, not even for a breeder of the pup that is being mistreated. Sorry. The breeder can offer to buy the puppy back, can offer twice the purchase price, can call the authorities if it is abuse/neglect they are witnessing, can file a case in court about them not abiding by the rules set out in their contract, but they cannot steal the dog back. That is criminal.

If you have committed a crime, if you have taken a dog that belonged to someone and removed it from the situation without permision, then you are a criminal, and you just haven't gotten caught. Probably because the police do not always put dog-theft high on their list of priorities. It is kind of like the dude who does not bother to feed and care for the dogs in his possession. He gets away with it, not because there is no law against it, but it is not high on the priority list. Becoming a criminal because you see a criminal getting away with it is not right.

I have a pair of diamond earings somewhere and a gold cross. I would rather the cops pay a lot more attention to someone who stole a dog, than someone who stole jewelry, but it is like so many things in life, bassackwards. But that does not give me the right to find the individual that stole my dog, break into their home, and steal my dog back, does it?
 

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It's just not as black and white to me as it is to you. That's all.
I share this sentiment as well. There is a pic on fb of a dog drug behind a car. I will spare the emotionality of reposting it here, but it is not pretty.

Would we be within our legal rights to take such a dog? Probably not. There are no caveats for theft in the case of this, that or other extinuating circumstance.

I'd take that dog so fast your head would spin. In fact, it it were within my physical ability, I'd make the dragger's head spin, too. Which would end up with me getting some kind of assault charge, I imagine. I'd do it, though.

The danger in all this is what each of us classifies as "abuse." So I do understand Selzer's points. "Abuse" to one person could be basically insignificant. As Betty said, it is not black/white. It requires judgement, and some are sorely lacking in that, and some are zealots.
 

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I'm not asking or expecting anyone to condone or condemn Sue. Like I said it is not black and white to me and I can see certain situations where I may go outside the law knowing that there could be consequences.

And if I felt that situation was that dire I personally would for the most part comfortable being labeling a criminal by some.

But I certainly understand your viewpoint and can't say you are wrong with advocating 100 percent respect for the law.
 

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I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.

I have no use for those who (as in the case the OP started the thread with) come and steal someones dog and then run off and hide leaving a holier than thou letter and a family without their dog.

I hope they are caught and prosecuted to the fullest for their act of cowardness.

At least chelle admitted that she might have to pay a legal price for going outside the law.

Would some of you vigilantes also kidnap children you thought were being abused.

My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.
 

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I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.

I have no use for those who (as in the case the OP started the thread with) come and steal someones dog and then run off and hide leaving a holier than thou letter and a family without their dog.

I hope they are caught and prosecuted to the fullest for their act of cowardness.

At least chelle admitted that she might have to pay a legal price for going outside the law.

Would some of you vigilantes also kidnap children you thought were being abused.

My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.
Very true. It would be very hard to work in that field. Part of you would want to steal the children, the other part would make you want to hurt people.

And I don't deny that we might feel that way about dogs too.

I just believe everyone should have the due process of the law. An individual should not be able to make the call as to whether you are not worthy to own your dogs.
 

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I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.

I have no use for those who (as in the case the OP started the thread with) come and steal someones dog and then run off and hide leaving a holier than thou letter and a family without their dog.

I hope they are caught and prosecuted to the fullest for their act of cowardness.

At least chelle admitted that she might have to pay a legal price for going outside the law.

Would some of you vigilantes also kidnap children you thought were being abused.

My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.

Your wife has a very difficult job. The hardest job I ever had was when I was a child abuse investigator for the State of Florida.

In retrospect that may of been when I learned first hand and personal that sometimes by following the law, innocents die horrible, avoidable deaths.
 

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Very true. It would be very hard to work in that field. Part of you would want to steal the children, the other part would make you want to hurt people.

And I don't deny that we might feel that way about dogs too.

I just believe everyone should have the due process of the law. An individual should not be able to make the call as to whether you are not worthy to own your dogs.
To be entirely honest, I don't believe that. (bolded.)

I'm a vigilante, but only in my own mind. :) I don't act on it because I enjoy my life with a nice, clear criminal record. :)

If push came to shove, however, I could make a judgment call that could potentially effect my life. And -- I would stand by it.

Stand for something or fall for anything. That's how I was raised and that's how I live.

Call me a renegade, but I don't put all my faith in courts, juries and judges. In fact, I put little faith there.

I could never work in social services. The first time I came into a situation with a beaten child, I'd go ballistic. I doubt I could keep my emotions in proper check and trust this ridiculous excuse we have for a "system."
 

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My wife works with abused women and children and if she kidnapped all the children that CPS does nothing for, she would be busy all the time. She would also have been in jail a long time ago.
Your wife has a very difficult job. The hardest job I ever had was when I was a child abuse investigator for the State of Florida.

In retrospect that may of been when I learned first hand and personal that sometimes by following the law, innocents die horrible, avoidable deaths.
Thank You, Betty and Andy's wife, for doing an incredibly hard and heart breaking job.
 

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I have nothing against those who stand on principle as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

If you feel so strongly that you are witnessing abuse then take the dog to the authorities. Stand up as the one who did it. Let everyone know.
If you suffer legal consequences then accept that with dignity.
I came across a situation years ago that 2 dogs were left in the yard for days at a time without food and water(In fact I don't think I ever saw water or food). It was in the winter and very cold:( They would sleep on top of each other in the corner of the yard to keep warm...All the neighbors were complaining and Animal Control would do nothing except go talk to the individual, with no result:mad: Saddest thing about it was that their owner was a cop and where I'm at, if you choose to stand up to a cop, then the consequences will be a whole lot worse, you might as well leave the town. In lots of cases you can remain anonymous, but not in this case. What do you think should have been done?
 

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If i thought the dog was abused or just neglected, I probably would sue the owners for my mental distress, and intentionally run their legal bills up as far as i could.
 

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I came across a situation years ago that 2 dogs were left in the yard for days at a time without food and water(In fact I don't think I ever saw water or food). It was in the winter and very cold:( They would sleep on top of each other in the corner of the yard to keep warm...All the neighbors were complaining and Animal Control would do nothing except go talk to the individual, with no result:mad: Saddest thing about it was that their owner was a cop and where I'm at, if you choose to stand up to a cop, then the consequences will be a whole lot worse, you might as well leave the town. In lots of cases you can remain anonymous, but not in this case. What do you think should have been done?

Video tape whats happening and make sure it ends up on youtube, if not the local news. Make sure you name the police department the officer works for (not the officer). Mention animal control officers are supporting the neglect of the dogs. Use provocative and inflammatory language during the narrative of the video. Make people angry.
 

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Video tape whats happening and make sure it ends up on youtube, if not the local news. Make sure you name the police department the officer works for (not the officer). Mention animal control officers are supporting the neglect of the dogs. Use provocative and inflammatory language during the narrative of the video. Make people angry.
Not a bad thought, but youtube wasn't even thought of:) The news would have been a good idea, but I don't think that it would have been considered news worthy....I'm sure there are many dogs that were treated this way back then:(
 

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Sorry this is off topic, but I just wanted to mention that swamp coolers do not work well in humid environments like we have here in the summer. Our heat also comes with high humidity, which raises the heat index a lot so it feels much warmer than the temperature and it is very difficult to cool down because sweating doesn't help as much when it's that humid.

Also I don't think messing around with high temperatures is necessarily a-okay; it is possible for dogs (or people) to die from hyperthermia.
Whenever we have a heat wave (temps over 90) here, there are quite a few deaths. Usually a lot of those are people who die in their homes, who did not have air conditioning.

Back in 1995, 700+ people died in Chicago's summer heat wave-- check it out: Dying Alone in the Heat Wave, an interview with Eric Klinenberg
 

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There is not one member on this board that has a dog, that I could not manufacture a reason to justify stealing their dog.

The dog is over-weight.
The dog is under-weight.
The dog is fed raw -- the poor thing, subjected to salmonella and yuck!
The dog is fed kibble -- the poor thing. all the garbage in kibble and how boring!
The dog is fed home-made -- the owners can't be canine nutritionists so they are probably not feeding properly!
The dog has a prong collar.
The dog has a shock collar.
The dog is used for breeding.
The dog is prevented from breeding.
They are going to spay or neuter the dog.
They are not going to spay or neuter the dog.
The dog spends hours in a crate.
The dog spends hours in a kennel.
The dog is chained.
The owners do not train the dog.
The owners force the dog to do agility, schutzhund, police k9 training, obedience, etc.
The dog is an only.
The dog is one of many.
And on and on and on.

It is NEVER ok to go outside the law and take someone's dog.

I do not know what it has to do with the price of rice in China that there was some yayhoo I hadn't heard of boarding and training dogs and neglecting them. Because he is from my state I guess makes me somewhat kin to him? If animal cruelty is not a felony in Ohio, then that is a problem. Last time I did arithmetic, two wrongs did not make a right.

No, I would not steal the dog from the man's kennels. Sorry. I wouldn't. I would not stop calling everyone and their brother, I would have seven different groups parked on the guys lawn, until the police and the news media WOULD have to take notice. But I would not remove the dogs.

Removing a dog from a nasty situation does save that dog, but it condemns another dog to take its place. It does not address the problem. It is an unintelligent and unimaginative temporary band-aid if the dog is actually stolen by an ignorant do-gooder. It is far better to go through the law, where the person is bothered, fined, charged, and so long as the situation, if it is a situation, is not resolved.

If animal control visits a property, sees the conditions, and the animal, and declares all is fine, then the people who have a problem need to mind their own business. Just because you feel it is best to perform major surgery on an elderly dog, it does not make another person an ogre for not having that surgery performed and to put the dog down when it is clear that it's quality of life is no longer acceptable. People have different feelings about all of these things. I personally think it is animal cruelty to try and save a dog that is burned over a large part of their body. I would put dogs out of their pain, and not force them to go through a painful recovery if the prognosis was poor. We all have different feelings about what is minimum care, what is right, what is wrong with respect to the treatment, feeding, care, containment, training of animals. By condoning the stealing of an animal because of one's personal beliefs about the treatment, is opening all of you to having your dogs justifiably stolen from you.

Unreal!
Everything in this post is 100% spot-on.

I don't always agree with what you have to say but it is at least always logical, and here, explains exactly my feelings on the matter.

I can't condone a person stealing someone's dog because there are so many strong feelings about what is and is not right that I'd basically be condoning the theft of my own dog.

He lives inside - how horrible, he needs to be outside where he has room to run! He isn't neutered - how terrible, that's basically abuse! He's fed raw - as you said, how horrible, exposing him to nasty germs and parasites! I have walked him on a prong - how horrible, I'm poking holes in his neck!

It is easy to pass judgement on a person or dog you have had ten minutes exposure with.

It is even easier for that judgement to be completely wrong.

~

If you have witnessed a dog be left out for days in extreme temperatures, you can tell for a fact they are not being fed/watered (and are not just missing the times when they are), the dogs could be Famine's mascot, etc, okay, maybe I have some sympathy.

But as others have said, stealing that dog still doesn't fix the problem. Another takes its place. The problem is the person. It's a temporary feel-good measure. And it's still very, very wrong. It is hard to champion for animal welfare from inside a jail cell.
 
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