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I was hoping this thread would keep rolling. Like Ruthie, I am trying to learn as much as possible about pedigrees. While I have not resorted to spreadsheets (yet), I have printed 6 generation pedigrees of several pedigrees of well-known working line dogs and, according to my wife, "wasting" entirely too much time on them. I find it fascinating to look behind the dogs (particularly the female lines) and attempt to determine what made them, to see the similarities and differences, and to follow how they have been used. Those pedigrees include:

Pike vd Schafbachmuhle
Mink vh Wittfeld
Orry vh Antverpa
Lord v Gleisdreieck
Ferro v Zeuterner Himmelreich
Enno v Beilstein

This thread has already touched on Orry, Fero, Mink, and their progeny. While I would like to hear more about them, it would be great to have comments about Pike, Lord, and Enno. I am particularly interested in Enno as there does not seem to be as much readily accessible information about him out there. Anne Kent commented on him not too long ago and I greatly appreciated that. Also, picking up on another ongoing thread, it would be interesting to hear about Sven v Grafental from those knowledgeable about east german lines. If I am not mistaken, Cliff has a young female linebred on Sven. Thanks.
 

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Yes, I do have a female that has Sven on both sides. Sven was like any other dog in that he meshed with some dogs and others he didn't, Obviously, the Sven x Sindy breeding presented some problems. Other breedings he did were fine as per the dogs he sired in my females pedigree that didn't have those problems.
People need to understand that the Czech dogs and the DDR dogs need to be bred out for genetic vitality. But many can't do it because they hooked on Heads and black sables and Whatever!! Same mentality as others that have gone down the mental degeneration trail. My DDR will not be bred to a DDR males as long as I have her. That was not my intent...but there are some nice DDR traits that need to be blended into other lines with different strengths.JMO
 

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B, Interesting - just found this thread....

I have a female who carries strong Lord, her mother has him 3 times, once through Pirol, Matsch B & Bielstein, on the bottom, and this female has Wolfendoble on the top along with Xento Maineiche....stong female, strong head, strong color....no Fero, no Mink.....hard to find dogs to breed to her without them - her dam was mostly DDR and the cross on WGR was very sucessful....balanced out the sporty/high prey into dogs who are not just sport dogs, but working police dogs and SAR dogs....

I also like the Belgian dogs - Orry via Tom and Ufo v Guy's Hof - who I meet in Belgium 6/7 years ago....

I had a super nice litter with the above female and an Ufo v Guy's Hof son....again, no Mink or Fero in the litter....I also have an Ufo daughter and she produced really well with Tom sons - has many titled progeny here and in Europe - great temperaments, very balanced dogs....gorgeous dogs too..not just in schutzhund, but in AKC OB, Agility and even flyball! One schutzhund titled son is very competitive in flyball....I want dogs that have appropriate social aggression yet can be family dogs....

Lee
 

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Yes, I do have a female that has Sven on both sides. Sven was like any other dog in that he meshed with some dogs and others he didn't, Obviously, the Sven x Sindy breeding presented some problems. Other breedings he did were fine as per the dogs he sired in my females pedigree that didn't have those problems.
People need to understand that the Czech dogs and the DDR dogs need to be bred out for genetic vitality. But many can't do it because they hooked on Heads and black sables and Whatever!! Same mentality as others that have gone down the mental degeneration trail. My DDR will not be bred to a DDR males as long as I have her. That was not my intent...but there are some nice DDR traits that need to be blended into other lines with different strengths.JMO

Cliff, if possible, can you please elaborate on some of the other Grafentals? I have seen some that were noise sensitive and soft in character, and others that were more solid in character.

PS. I like the DDRs but also agree they should be crossed into other lines for genetic diversity.
 

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I don't know what to elaborate on???.....The Grafental lines are typical of the DDR of the past 15 years. I'm sure you may run into some noise sensitivity or softness depending on what else is in the pedigree besides the Grafental dogs. :confused:
 

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I don't know what to elaborate on???.....The Grafental lines are typical of the DDR of the past 15 years. I'm sure you may run into some noise sensitivity or softness depending on what else is in the pedigree besides the Grafental dogs. :confused:
Overall I have heard mostly good things about the Grafentals and have generally liked those that I have seen. The gun sensitive individual was by a 1/2 DDR/West German show-line sire out of a 100% Grafental bitch, so your comment about "what else was in the pedigree" is worth looking into... The other individual was 100 % Grafental but with Sven and Sindy up close...and apparently that is not a good combination...
and the owner has made the decision not to breed this individual.

Not trying to stir up trouble, just trying to learn. I hope my comments here are general enough, as I also have no intentions of running anyone's dog down.
 

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The Sven/Sindy combination definitely didnot work out well. These dogs (DDR) should be bred out at this point to enlarge the genepool. For the laid back this is good with German showline, with the competitve, with West working or Czech. The line possesses some strong natural traits, like suspicion and hunt drive that other lines have all but eliminated.
 

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Leerburg has an article on Mink that I've found to be pretty accurate as it relates to my dogs.

Mink vom Haus Wittfeld

My dogs are linebred on Mink, mostly through Crok through a dog from Leerburg. I've found the prey drive to be very high with a low threshold, their nerves are a little closer to the surface, which actually makes for a super obedience dog. With proper socialization all were very environmentally sound, social with people, and easy to live with. All of mine have been handler sensitive, but generally hard to physical corrections. Good aggression when tapped, but not particularly suspicious (although this may be a product of heavy socialization in college towns?). Grip can get chewy if they're overstimulated in the work when they are too young- they tend to load. Very vocal- tendency to be screamers. Health/Hips/Elbows has generally been good. Conformation could be better.
 

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I see that Ajay Singh, of Patalia Kennels has brought Mac von der Kine into the country recently. Ajay is one of the most knowledgable people I have met on knowing both pedigrees and performance dogs. (He is a world competitor in his own right). On the proceeding page of this thread I commented on Vox von der Kine, and his son Mac von der Kine. I was not aware that Ajay was trying to bring this dog to the country, but I am glad to see genetics like this; here for use by us.
 
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