German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
LEE CHARLES KELLEY

I found this article from another thread that was on this board. I just got done reading a lot of his things with an open mind and I have to say I like a lot of the things that he says.....a lot of common sense things. Read some of his things and let me know what you think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for your input Jax, I do have to admit that I was always more "correction" than positive, I have changed my ways a lot from 20 years ago but I still find there are times I may be still a bit too "hard".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,379 Posts
Thanks for your input Jax, I do have to admit that I was always more "correction" than positive, I have changed my ways a lot from 20 years ago but I still find there are times I may be still a bit too "hard".
I think the hardest thing for me is to stay positive even though there was a delayed reaction to the action I was requesting from my dog. An example would be 'leave it' when the dog is barking at the fence at a horse. He is already engaged in his action which makes it more difficult to redirect, but had I redirected him before he became fully engaged the redirection is immediate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,553 Posts
I've learned alot with Jax. I originally trained her with the Alpha mentality and strictly with a prong collar in a compulsive manner. Now I get to spend the rest of her life fixing what I did. We are having a lot of fun retraining in a positive manner and tapping into her natural drive rather than shutting it down with a correction.

But I never did buy for a minute that if you allow dogs to lay on the couch with you that they think they are equal to you and think of you as a pack member along with the rest of the jazz that goes with it. She knows people aren't dogs. I have a dog reactive dog..if she thought people were dogs then she would also be people reactive if you follow that theory. The Alpha theory just never really made sense to me. Maybe that's why it didn't take me long to question it. :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,921 Posts
LEE CHARLES KELLEY

I found this article from another thread that was on this board. I just got done reading a lot of his things with an open mind and I have to say I like a lot of the things that he says.....a lot of common sense things. Read some of his things and let me know what you think.
Interesting article and theory except if you took it to another length - does he also mean that a small dog looks at a big dog as a predator instead of another dog? Or a puppy looking at an adult as a predator? Sounds like it would follow, if the theory is as I assume he says it is - the human height is the distinguishing factor. Or how about a human sitting in a wheelchair with a big dog (i.e. Great Dane) they would be about even like two same size dogs, wouldn't they?

Nope, afraid I can't buy the theory as the author concieves it.

And if there is no "Alpha" in a wild pack - wonder who decides where the pack goes and when they hunt, and who has puppies (do all of the females breed every year?). Maybe randomly decided? Discussion group?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
682 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I am kind of torn on this cod? Not too sure if I buy into everything on this but he does have a lot of research to back it up, like the one with Mech and the wolves. Mech is or is supposed to be "the guy" when it comes to wolves.

Plus the people that don't buy into the "Alpha" theory but still practice NILIF and things of that nature would be contradicting themselves wouldn't they? I mean in a sense you are dominating you dog while doing NILIF, maybe not in a physical sense but you are still "making" him or her do something for a reaction.

IMO, I like NILIF and I think it works for me, I also have had great sucess with recalls from a long line and a prong collar, I guess there are many ways to skin a cat. Just trying to get peoples theory's and lets hope no one gets angry lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,178 Posts
To be honest I do not believe the pack leader theory! I look at it more as a father daughter relationship. I simply love her every day and guide her to make the right decision with tonnes of patients. Molly sleeps in my bed, sits next to me on the couch and does all the other things the pack leader theory say not to do. We do have hick ups once in a while but always seem to manage
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,219 Posts
Interesting article, but it is about wolves. Dogs haven't been wolves for a million years and there is no reason that they should be so closely compared to them. Humans share most of their DNA with apes but we don't expect humans to act like them. Naturally I can only speak for myself and it seems to me that I am alpha in my relationship with my dog.
As far as training goes I am not harsh or very controlling. I don't use special collars to hurt the dog if she is not doing what I want. Some call it correcting, I call it hurting .... just put one on an try it yourself. As for NILIF I think that is fine for people who have control issues. I have a much more easy going relationship and as a result I have an easy going dog. It is said that if you want to understand a dog just look at its owner.
For some strange reason, all my dogs have been easy going, although they didn't start out that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,119 Posts
I don't like any comparisons to wolves. Even with only 12 to 120,000 years, they are NOT the same animals. Non-genetically speaking even, there are huge differences between the two animals. One only has to look at the behavioral differences of wolf/dog hybrids to see the stark differences in their behavior.

No matter what way you look at it, humans ARE the leaders. I do not think that heirarchy should be established between dogs within one family, but it's foolish to think that this applies to dog and human interactions.

A dog is expected to conform to a certain behavior within a family. They are expected to sit when you say sit. Come when called. Eat when you allow them. Even the most "positive" owner is ruling the roost and is in the "alpha" position. We train dogs. Dogs don't train us (at least literally).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,725 Posts
I wish I had never heard of the whole concept of Alpha, because I completely misinterpreted it. My dog is not dominating me when she pulls on the leash, she's just trying to go faster. My dog isn't dominating me when he pushes his face under my arm to make me pet him, he's just being rude. I would not have taken these behaviors so personally if I had not been interpreting them as a shot at usurping my leadership position.

By understanding that these kinds of things aren't a power play, I can be waaay less emotionally reactive to them and calmly show the proper behavior.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
410 Posts
I wish I had never heard of the whole concept of Alpha, because I completely misinterpreted it. My dog is not dominating me when she pulls on the leash, she's just trying to go faster. My dog isn't dominating me when he pushes his face under my arm to make me pet him, he's just being rude. I would not have taken these behaviors so personally if I had not been interpreting them as a shot at usurping my leadership position.

By understanding that these kinds of things aren't a power play, I can be waaay less emotionally reactive to them and calmly show the proper behavior.


Thank you for posting this! I was worried that he was in some battle for control with me when he pulls while walking. He doesnt always do it, some days are just more irritating and consistant than others. And as soon as I say something to him he stops and walks next to me. But now I see that he's just excited, he isnt trying to dominate me.....

The "alpha dog" theory had me all freaked out when I first adopted my 2yr old GSD. Not until I joined this site did I get an understanding for what that really means, or does not mean for that matter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,099 Posts
Humans share most of their DNA with apes but we don't expect humans to act like them. Naturally I can only speak for myself

I agree, but my wife says I TOTALLY act like an ape.:crazy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
22 Posts
Interesting article but there is a genetic difference between dogs and wolves. Somewhere along the line a dog saw a relationship between himself and man as a beneficial thing for himself, and it is one based on leadership. Man learned early how to make his dog sit while he ate his own food without the dogs mauling him and it had to have been based on a sense of leadership between himself and the dog. Early dogs weren't just pets, they were soldiers. They understand the concept of leadership very well.

What wolves do doesn't really factor into it in my opinion but it was an interesting read.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,951 Posts
Whats with all the moose talk,lol I am my dogs leader- thats why they pee outside when I let them out, sit, stay, come, play, and end games when I say so. Like kids they are lead by their owners to display the behaviors we want and are acceptable because we train these behaviors. Unlike wolves dogs can't take turns leading us so while we don't have to be Alpha we do have to be leaders though I do agree the simple act of feeding, walking, and positive training convey this message. I don't 100% agree on the whole height aspect of leadership. I actually think dogs listen to who feeds them, trains them, and guides them= it's as simple as that:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I find this whole notion of debunking the old 'pack leader' theory very strange. Sadly most of us have seen or know of a dog that is completely in control of their household. These dogs walk their owners/ pull in what ever direction they please, they are the first out the door, up the stairs, and extremely protective of their owner and property. Now GSDs will be naturally protective but there is most certainly an 'alpha' mentality in those untrained dogs. Perhaps a wolf pack is a democracy and votes are taken, but with dogs, there is a visible difference. Those poorly trained dogs, and by trained I mean that have been taught that they don't make the decisions, only respond to commands when they feel like it and can be very dangerous. It can be best visualized with toys, to an untrained dog those are his toys and if you try to take them he will try to stop you. A trained dog understands that those are your toys and you can take them back when you want. Trained dogs are more relaxed because they feel safer and don't have to always be 'on guard'. Think of a CEO vs a regular worker position. The CEO = much more pressure/stress. People like to see their dogs as children, and at times they can be, but regardless they still require a stable structure to feel safe. I am against letting the dog in the bed with you, and at my house we sleep with our bedroom door open and he knows that he is not allowed in the bedroom, sometimes he lays just outside the door if he's not in his kennel. Whether or not it's necessary I believe it is a good exercise of the family hierarchy. If there are places in the house that the dog can't go, but you can, he begins to realize that it's your house, he's a guest. To each their own, but I have seen too many poorly trained and stressed 'alpha' dogs trying to create/maintain order in their family and getting hurt or in trouble because of that. :cry:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,725 Posts
I don't subscribe to the alpha theory. I use NILIF because I believe dogs should be well mannered, and that works like a charm. I have always traded up for toys and treats, so if I want to or need to take something from either of my dogs, they willingly give it up, even if I don't happen to have something better to give them right that second.

I let my dogs out the door/up stairs first, but they must sit first and be released. I am pretty sure that just because they have gone first doesn't make them superior to me. And I don't need them to feel inferior to me in order to make them behave.

I think you can have a well-behaved, polite dog without being lord and master. And I think that you and I have similar house rules, but the lens through which we view our training methods is just different.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top