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Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?

I suppose it's possible for there to be a B&T dog with tarheels, but I've never encountered one. Even on really, really dark B&Ts that have extensive enough black to be mistaken for Bi-color.

I've never seen a Bi-color without tarheels, though I've seen a couple without toe penciling, that's pretty rare.

The dog pictured has such odd markings it's hard to say what he is genetically. I suppose he could be a Bi-color, but he does have too much tan to generally fit that mold. But it's obvious he has some pretty significant extension genes causing lack of black in the mask, so possibly elsewhere too...

Actually looks to me like he could be sable. Especially with the shawl on his shoulders. Though probably not since neither of parents look like saddle patterned sables.. though the could be. Old b&w photos can make it hard to tell.
 

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http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/528310.html
Another with the tarheel.

It is a little boggling, Chris. Rocky might indeed be a sable as his mom looks like a possible sable, but either way those are some odd markings. I looked at the siblings, and a full sibling from a different litter ended up a bicolor: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/444029.html

Same litter: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403136.html Looks like a tarheel on the foreground hock.

It sure doesn't help that they are black and white, but these are still confusing! In any case, it helps to know that tarheeling is a bicolor trait along with toe penciling.
 

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I think it is just the photo that is making this dog appear to have tar heals. He is a blanket b/t.

The sire, Ch. Nordraak of Matterhorn, of the first dog you posted seems to have produced a few of these dogs that sort of look bi-colored.
1/2 sister: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/403819.html
His Sire also appears to be a BI that doesn't have as much black. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/402146.html
Noordraak himself had terrible color and one would never know that he could produce these more melanistic dogs. He also produced several with terrible color. The original dog may very well be a BI with some sort of color fading gene affecting how much black/tan he shows.
 

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Wow. The first dog in question really looks like the faded bi-color on the color page JKlatsky posted.
Thanks for that color page! Very interesting and informative!
 

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Thank you for that link. I had forgotten about that page. Yes, he does look like a faded BI.
 

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Barry is typical of Long Worth breeding of the 40's and 50's. The black and white pictures are deceiving as the faded white is light tan. Vol of Long Worth was heavily linebred/inbred on and helped to improve pigment during a period in the US where almost all dogs were Black and Tan. Actually many of the Long Worth dogs were saddles and I think I remeber they had a 5 Champion litter in which all were saddles. These dogs (Barry) were black and tan with a larger amount of black. The same with the Caralon dogs, who had Hein as a foundation dog. These dogs were in their infancy genetically of having sable/black blood incorporated in them as opposed to today's bi colors that are usually dogs with sables/blacks that are strongly ingrained over many generations. I hope this makes sense.
 

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Re: Do B&T dogs have tarheels?

Would this also work for mixes-the faded bi-color?

Bruno is a Schipperke-Shepherd mix (I think).

Excuse all the other butts, his would be the one with the tarheels.



And here he is from the side to see his overall coloring-after a bath:
 

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I think I figured out one thing -- maybe not.

My female had tarheels, pencilling, and the marks down the front of the legs when she was a puppy and these marks graduallly faded to the point of still being visible (the penciling is gone) but intermixed with a lot of tan.

She is a blanket black, not a bicolor, but since her birth her sable mother has produced some black offspring with other sires --so my female has to carry the black gene. I have heard that sables who carry the black gene often have these marks; could it be true of B&T?
 

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Originally Posted By: EastGSDNat are you sure your girl is not just a very dark sable in the blanket pattern?

Cherri
Crossed my mind but I didn't think that was possible, except for the gray on the back of her neck, which always tipped me off to sable.

Her undercoat is gray.

This is Freyja's dam, Whoopie von der Fasanerie (from Anne's website):

 

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Originally Posted By: Nat
Originally Posted By: EastGSDNat are you sure your girl is not just a very dark sable in the blanket pattern?

Cherri
Crossed my mind but I didn't think that was possible, except for the gray on the back of her neck, which always tipped me off to sable.
Looking at her neck and flanks, I'm sort of wondering the same thing.

Easy way to answer the question... what color was she as a pup? If brownish gray as a pup, she's sable. If mostly black, she's bi-color.
 

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Her coloring is almost exactly the same as Alexis' who is a BI. Alexis is darker, but also has the gray on the back of her neck. And Anne would have known if Nat's female was a sable.
 

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