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Discussion Starter #1
I am curious about how the genetics of this condition work. What is the likelihood of a monorchid dog producing monorchid puppies. Or a cryptorchid dog? Or is this a polygenic condition, where it may skip a generation?

Is there a condition where the testicles just haven't dropped but are present, or is there any where they aren't present at all?

Does it have to be present on both sides of the equation, like the black recessive to get black dogs? If you breed an affected male to a female that does not have an affected dog behind her, will you have puppies that are carriers, but will not have the condition themselves?

I have a book on GSD genetics, but it's not handy at the moment.
 

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From that article;

"In Germany and many other countries, where registration is denied Cryptoids sanctions are made against their parents, more than half of the "VA" (top show) GSD's in a 20 year period sired Cryptorchidism and hence were carriers."

These disorders go back so far in this breeds history... Just sad.
 

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If a cryptorchid dog is bred, what percentage of his male pups will be crypt? Same question if he is a carrier?

Seems like of all the genettic problems this one is not so terrible, besides a more invasive neuter surgery does it impact the dog's life in any other way?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think if you do not neuter the internal testicle, it is possible that it will twist and cause pain, possible infection or worse. But, like everything else it is just a risk. There are some that do not believe that cancer is more likely in a retained testicle, but spotting it would be near impossible before it is too late, and since, this cancer actually does have a good prognosis if caught in time. That would be sad. Again a risk you take.

I know of a monorchid dog that sired 10 male pups (2 bitches) and all of the pups had both testicles by 7 or 10 weeks. I would imagine that the pups would all be carriers. Unless there are actually more reasons for the problem.

I mean, if it is genetic if the accompanying hardware was too short to descend properly, or the testicle(s) were completely non-existent, then all the pups would be carriers of that condition. If it were more the descending and ascending testicle, and the ring closed when it was on the up-swing, maybe that isn't a genetic issue? And then puppies out of that dog might not be affected at all.

But I really do not know.

It is a pain for owners because of the extra cost in neutering, and because the dog cannot be shown. The dogs are certainly able to sire puppies, perform in dog sports, and make as good pets as their brothers that have their equipment properly descended.
 

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Hopefully soon, there will be better and more affordable tools for diagnostic treatment/prevention of the serious stuff - for both people and animals.
 

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Well I can relate to the surgery being a pain, I am dreading it. Mine is 13 months now, either crypt or monorchid. I was thinking of asking the ultrasound vet if she has ever searched for one prior to surgery to limit the digging around looking for it.

My other vet seemed to feel waiting until 24 months to go in for the other one would be ok. Planning to get a 2nd opinion on that but would like to combine with OFA X Rays while he is under so would rather wait until maturity.

I don't think it is worth it not to get it out of there seeing as there are things that could go wrong. I can't tell that it bothers him any currently
 

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I know of a monorchid dog that sired 10 male pups (2 bitches) and all of the pups had both testicles by 7 or 10 weeks. I would imagine that the pups would all be carriers. Unless there are actually more reasons for the problem.



Selzer, was this an intentional breeding? I didn't think reputable breeders ever used one nutters? Do the dog's accomplishments or attributes at some point outweigh that issue?
 

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I think if you do not neuter the internal testicle, it is possible that it will twist and cause pain, possible infection or worse. But, like everything else it is just a risk. There are some that do not believe that cancer is more likely in a retained testicle, but spotting it would be near impossible before it is too late, and since, this cancer actually does have a good prognosis if caught in time. That would be sad. Again a risk you take.

I know of a monorchid dog that sired 10 male pups (2 bitches) and all of the pups had both testicles by 7 or 10 weeks. I would imagine that the pups would all be carriers. Unless there are actually more reasons for the problem.

I mean, if it is genetic if the accompanying hardware was too short to descend properly, or the testicle(s) were completely non-existent, then all the pups would be carriers of that condition. If it were more the descending and ascending testicle, and the ring closed when it was on the up-swing, maybe that isn't a genetic issue? And then puppies out of that dog might not be affected at all.

But I really do not know.

It is a pain for owners because of the extra cost in neutering, and because the dog cannot be shown. The dogs are certainly able to sire puppies, perform in dog sports, and make as good pets as their brothers that have their equipment properly descended.
Why would someone intentionally breed a dog with this? Aren't there other males that can stud?
 

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Why would someone intentionally breed a dog with this? Aren't there other males that can stud?
Well, that's the big question isn't it? From the posts about DM carriers to this.

I see the answers stemming from "That's the way it is" and "That's what we have to choose from" But I don't see any looking forward to the very near future with the information that's coming. Back to the same question...

Some look at perhaps if the "bottom" just choses more wisely?? and if the bottom just listens none of these problems would exist - that's crazy thinking.

My thought is that leaving things for the "bottom" to fix rarely works. It starts at the top - and that's the only way it has a chance to work....

Zeph IMO is the best source for an honest answer on this.... She is living it and doing it at the top levels. If the genome/genetic tests become very affordable Zeph, and give you information you have had not had access to before - would you use it???? Would it change your practices about taking the good with the bad???

That sounds like a crazy question - but after the discussions this week - I have to ask.... Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Why would someone intentionally breed a dog with this? Aren't there other males that can stud?
Actually, it really isn't a big deal, unless you are showing. And even then, only a percentage of the dogs will be affected, and maybe none of them.

In nature, there are many problems, and dogs bring all sorts of them. If you breed exclusively to eliminate one thing, you might also cause the incidence of other issues to increase, by blotting out a percentage of the gene pool.

Let's look what would happen in the wild? Would these dogs breed or not? They are capable, and they are not sterile, so they would breed.

There are scads of genetic conditions, some of which we can test for, like hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia and DM; and some of which we can recognize in progeny, like hemophilia and dwarfism; and some of which we feel a genetic predisposition for, like bloat and pyometra. Monorchid/Cryptorchid is pretty low on the list of things to worry about. Yes, it is a disqualifying fault, just like white dogs are. White dogs and dogs without testicles can be registered though, and their lives are not likely to be shorter because of the flaw. We need to look at the whole dog, and if a dog brings a lot of stuff to the table, then I think it might make sense to see what he produces.
 

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Backyard and unethical breeders don't care.
Now, Selzer and Zeph are BYB's and unethical? They've been explaining all week what a narrow path they have to walk to get it right. LOL - Read what they are saying... This goes back to your whole flying off the handle thing that I am attacking breeders and I am not, never was unless they pass on known diseases - then I questioned it and no answer came except " Well, that's what we have to work with" . They are working with what they have in a very complicated genetic breed. They are doing the best they can, but they are saying there's still problems and are passing on diseases. AND I AM SAYING the genetic information coming can help them tremendously and am curious if they will embrace it.

MAWL - You seem driven,confused and not willing to look forward. I hope you can learn something about the future here....
 

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Correction for you MAWL. Selzer and Zeph have not been explaining all week about the current problems. Please change that in your computer banks to "Breeders"....have been explaining...
 

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Now, Selzer and Zeph are BYB's and unethical? They've been explaining all week what a narrow path they have to walk to get it right. LOL - Read what they are saying... This goes back to your whole flying off the handle thing that I am attacking breeders and I am not, never was unless they pass on known diseases - then I questioned it and no answer came except " Well, that's what we have to work with" . They are working with what they have in a very complicated genetic breed. They are doing the best they can, but they are saying there's still problems and are passing on diseases. AND I AM SAYING the genetic information coming can help them tremendously and am curious if they will embrace it.

MAWL - You seem driven,confused and not willing to look forward. I hope you can learn something about the future here....
Where did either of them state that they breed to monorchids / cryptorchids? I did not read that anywhere. What a terrible thing to accuse these two breeders. I am not sure about Selzer, but I know Xeph shows her dogs and a dog would be disqualified from the ring if afflicted. What led you to believe that either of them would breed to a stud that is afflicted?

I am not saying that the male / female may not have the potential to produce pups like this, or that they should be thrown out with the bath water, after all breeding for the total dog is the priority and there are always risks. People have tried explaining this to you for a long time now, but you choose not to hear it because their is no disdain of reputable breeders in the message.

As far as I know, cryptorchids are sterile and could not be bred anyhow.

I don't believe I have ever seen you ask a question about poorly bred dogs and not point the finger of responsibility at reputable breeders, like you are doing right now. You don't have to explain the difference between backyard bred dogs and those from a reputable breeder to me. I am not the one contributing to the support of backyard breeders and then complaining about the poor health of the breed. I have talked to many reputable breeders in detail, AND LEARNED FROM THEM, still do, and I support these breeders who know about genetics and how to manipulate them to minimize all risks. Perhaps you confuse me with somebody else.

SV You seem driven and confused and your forward is where reputable breeders are today. I hope that you can learn that your future is happening right now when it comes to GSDs and reputable breeders and that these breeders are headed in a whole other direction in the future than you can't even begin to imagine as you cling to where you would like to see backyard breeders in the future.

Besides, I was not talking to you and I really don't like people twisting my words to pretend I bashed somebody when clearly I did not.
 

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Correction for you MAWL. Selzer and Zeph have not been explaining all week about the current problems. Please change that in your computer banks to "Breeders"....have been explaining...
I am well aware of who has been trying to explain things to you all week, once again, I suspect you confuse me for somebody else.
 

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I'm not sure exactly what I have or haven't done. I have bred two litters, using the same sire. The sire I used was a DM carrier. If I have a good animal in my lines that is a carrier, I'm not going to discard it for that. What I am going to do is breed it to clear animals.

A carrier can produce both clear and carrier animals. It is foolish to throw a dog out of the gene pool when you can safely breed to a clear. Heck, you can breed a clear to an at risk and the entire litter will be carriers.

At this juncture, follow up necropsies probably matter more than the actual test since DM can only be diagnosed with spinal cord tissue.

Breeding isn't just black and white. It is shades of variant grey. You need to pick and choose your poisons regardless and know that there will always be somebody unhappy with your choice.

My foundation bitch has a DJD1 elbow. It's posted right on my website and it's in the OFA database. No surprises. If a buyer asks me about it I tell them the truth...I don't know if it's genetic or an injury. There's no way for me to say. But I bred to a dog with strong joints and with a good joint history behind him.

The dogs from my first litter are being OFA'd now (they just turned two a month ago) and lo and behold, my bitch with a "bad elbow" is producing normal elbows. She's producing good hips so far as well, and two dogs prelim'd excellent.

She's had a total of sixteen puppies and I plan on breeding her once more. There will undoubtedly be a failure or two amongst those animals. That's the nature of genetics. When it comes to breeding it comes down to both preserving the breed and minimizing any possible damage that could be done.

My last litter will be an outcross (AmLine to WGSL). Could be stunning. Or it could be an epic disaster. The COI will be incredibly low, but so will homozygosity. I could improve on joint health but wind up with a bunch of nutters.

I've been doing my best over the years to educate myself and make sound breeding decisions. Took me 14 years to even breed a litter.

I definitely do not have all the answers and have not been breeding nearly as long as many here. The people that are here that have bred for a long time certainly helped impress upon me that no dog is or ever will be perfect, every dog has a fault, and we should only make choices we feel we can live with.
 
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