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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
When with the shepherd did they defend sheep as well? My dog has extreme forward predator aggression to the point she doesnt even bark now she will just try to catch and fight it to death(only on property), was just curious the original shepherds I know they protected the shepherd but did they also protect the sheep?
 

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to my knowledge, the dogs were meant to herd AND protect. The sheep is their "pack". The dogs had to be small enough to handle the job but large enough to be a deterrent to theft or coyotes and other predators as well as be willing to step up to a fight is the need arose.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
coyotes don't exist in germany? maybe jackals, euro lynx, golden eagles and stray/feral dogs? and people of course
 

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predators in general. lol
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
lol yeah, so dealing with predators was part of their job both 4 legged and 2 legged as long, as the shepherd is with them of course. I thought I remember cliff mentioning this i just forgot. Ive seen mine actually lift her leg up and mark a spot where she ran off a coyote. She will mark the spot it was standing.
 

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is it anything other than romantic/nostalgic musings to discuss the modern gsd as if it has anything in common with an actual practical herding dog.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Some people work hard to keep the original shepherd alive. In case you didn't notice. If they didnt your dog would be tucking tail and running all the time there was any kind of scary confrontation.
 

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my breeder has never considered herding abilities in the selection of his stock in some thirty years of breeding.
 

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wow for someone on a GSD forum where one might assume they like the breed, you sure are prejudice against it. There are GSDs that are actually herding dogs. They're supposed to be an all around functional dog. The can do it all canine. There are responsible breeders who do breed for those qualities. There was a post recently where someone in Colorado was asking about one person giving commands to their herding dogs, ONE of the dogs being a GSD. Just because someone clearly doesn't see the dogs that are involved as herding dogs, doesn't mean they aren't out there. There are herding dog trials. There are classes one can take with their dog. Today's GSD may not be as hardened as the GSDs of the past but the majority can still get the job done.
 

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no its BECAUSE i love the breed i want them to be discussed for how they are now, what that means and where that leads.

it's folks that discuss the breed in romantic, flowery, nostlagic ways that are the true enemies of the breed.

using yr logic you would conclude that cliffson and jack's dad? HATE the breed which is clearly the opposite of the truth.
 

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no its BECAUSE i love the breed i want them to be discussed for how they are now, what that means and where that leads.

it's folks that discuss the breed in romantic, flowery, nostlagic ways that are the true enemies of the breed.

using yr logic you would conclude that cliffson and jack's dad? HATE the breed which is clearly the opposite of the truth.

I don't see how discussing the breed as it was intended makes people the enemy of that breed. This breed was intended to be a herding dog but also a protector. Because of it's intelligence and ability to learn new tasks quickly and effectively, it was brought into use as a protection dog, search dog, etc for the various military units that could get the dogs.

Cliff is VERY knowledgeable and his logic is sound. I honestly don't pay much attention to posts from Jack's Dad. I love this breed for its versatility. Considering the vast majority of people who have one breed or another anymore really have that breed for a companion more than anything since most of us are city dwellers, the breed had to be adaptive. The dogs who served well in the military are the ones bred to be working lines. Their breeders took certain qualities of one dog and certain qualities of another and put them together in the hopes they would get the next generation of working dogs with the drive to protect and work more than drive livestock.

If wanting the breed to stay true to its capabilities is considered romantic, then call me a hopeless romantic. I believe this breed can still do it all and will do it all with the right people. So what if some people prefer the dog just to be geared for bite work? That's fine. That's part of the versatility of the breed. If I want my dog to be able to do bite work and also help me round up a herd of sheep or cattle, then I will find a breeder who knows their dogs capabilities and potential that can help me succeed at both.

This breed is a working breed. No matter what the job, they're up for it. I don't think that's romantic, flowery or nostalgic. I think that's realistic.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
x11 are you drunk

gsd is versatile jack of all trades etc.. Its the smartest of all dogs (maybe next to the border collie) They can do almost any task. Its not a one dimensional attack dog, sorry but that just makes it look stupid. Yes it is a serious protector and maybe the best out there. But thats just part of it.
 

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sure, thats why the herding lines are guessing less than one percent of all the gsd born and schuts has a herding phase to you know, keep the breeding stock true to it's heritage.

dreaming is a great thing to do, i am currently dreaming i am fishing for marlin on some remote pacific island surrounded by women in grass skirts calling me the messiah while chewing on beetle-nut.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
What makes you think that people who breed and produce police dogs or pp dogs won't produce a dog that can herd?

What makes u think a police dog can't do it if it was tested? My trainers ring 3 mal passed the test. So you saying these gsd's wont?

The demand for sheep herding is just not there anymore for gsds. Border collies took over that demand. LGD & donkey took over the protection demand. Many can still do it if you want them to. Many still have it in them I am sure they just are not as good as some of the other dogs.
 

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cos if you don't breed specifically for herding and test herding ability and cull heavily every generation in about 4 generations max you no longer have a herding line.

herding instinct test is about as farcical as a breed survey test is for nerve & protective instinct.

but you lovers of the breed continue, it's all worked well so far, i will be the not so lone nut that seeks and speaks the truth.
 

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I wont deny the nut part....

funny thing about this breed. THEY ARE VERSATILE!!! They are willing to learn just about anything you throw at them, this includes herding. Some have the instinct, some don't. That's the case with all herding/working breeds. Border Collies are an example. Sure they have that classic border collie stare but there are dogs that have been put with a herd of sheep and just don't have the instinct needed for it. But some of those lacking can be trained. With their intelligence, they learn to read the patterns in the herd, watch for the movements needed to move in a certain direction. It may take some more work in training but its not impossible to teach them.
 

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The answer to your question is Yes. German Shepherds were developed with natural forward aggression. Their roll in Shepherding is actually considered sheep "tending" rather than just moving sheep around (herding). They run a perimeter around the sheep to keep them in place and keep a watchful eye for intruders. There is actually an IPO title, the HGH, that test the dogs tending abilities.
 

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The answer to your question is Yes. German Shepherds were developed with natural forward aggression. Their roll in Shepherding is actually considered sheep "tending" rather than just moving sheep around (herding). They run a perimeter around the sheep to keep them in place and keep a watchful eye for intruders. There is actually an IPO title, the HGH, that test the dogs tending abilities.
:thumbup: The term I've heard is "invisible fence". I was going to take Piper for herding lessons, her breeder suggested we go to someone who was familiar with GSD's and do tending instead. She did go to another trainer just once when she was 17 weeks old to see how she would react to the sheep, she did really well.

x11- Have you ever tried it? It's actually pretty interesting IMHO.
 

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Here is an interesting site concerning herding: German Shepherd Herding. It not only contains interviews and insights from Manfred Heyne (look him up) but also comparisons between Schutzhund and herding. A visit to this site is time well spent IMO.
 

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German Shepherds still make excellent heerding dogs. Health issues have kept me from it for several years now, but in the past I took the grandsire of the dog I have now to be tested for herding. The trainer had a working line GSD that she used for her every day chores and for trialing. She didn't believe that the ASL had any instinct or drive left in it, but she said we could come out anyway. She was impressed with his instinct for gathering, his drive for the work, and his biddability for direction. She helped me train this dog to the best of MY ability and time (it was a 7 hour drive for me, but worth it), as well as many other dogs trhu the years. Every dog I ever took to her farm showed instinct, but some didn't have the drive to keep it up, and others weren't as biddable as needed, but quite a few of the dogs did very well.
 
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