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Discussion Starter #1
I knew this would eventually happen. Been waiting for it. Have seen the signs start. But thought I had a few more months.

Havoc is climbing the social ladder.

Kayos has been deferring to him for some time now but she is also not a leader type. She is very sweet and willing to follow me, rarely upsets the apple cart.

Max is the old guy and has been the leader guy since old Lucky went over the bridge 5.5 years ago. Havoc would like Max's position.

Max has a very special toy that he carries around. It is a wooly bunny and we call it his baby. He is very careful with his baby and no one can have his baby except Joe and I. Havoc wanted his baby. It wasn't pretty.

I was in the bedroom folding clothes and Joe was outside getting the grill out for dinner. I heard the fight start and knew what it was immediately. I walked out of the bedroom barked at both dogs and they stopped long enough for me to get around behind them and grab Max. Max lunged again and I raised him off the ground by his tail, told Havoc to back off and he did. Fight over. Joe heard the snarling and noise and came in to see my with Max's tail in my hand and figured out what happened.

Unfortunately for Max baby has been taken away and put up. He can only have baby when he is by himself in the garage or yard. Havoc also may not have baby. Baby is mine.

I have been watching the occassional side long glances, body language etc and have told both of them to back off and cut between them several times. I expect that old Max won't go down without another scuffle or two but it is coming.
 

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Sounds like my house! I had to do what you've done and it nipped the issues between Tanner and Jackson (my other GSD, who has been top dog since my old girl passed away 2.5 years ago).
Sheilah
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Fortunately no blood awas shed and I hope this dampens Havoc a bit but I doubt it.

Max really is not a confident dog, he has nerve issues and I know Havoc has sensed that. Havoc is very confident and sure of himself. I expect this will happen again. Kayos was backing Havoc, I saw that as I came into the livingroom where th fight started. As soon as she saw me she came to me and stuck beside me.

I know the force of my will is all that really stopped it but I am afraid it may be temporary. I will need to be on top of my game from here on out.

In addition Max is having problems with dementia. The supplements are helping somewhat but it is still advancing. This last week Max started showing less interest in food. He is eating and finishing his food but is eating very slowly. I know Havoc knows the old guy is not all there and will attempt to take advantage.

I have to protect Max and Havoc both from harm but also let nature take her course.

No one had better even think of challenging a human in the house.
 

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Poor Max, he must miss his baby! We get the occasional scuffle in our house as well. Mya is the alpha (under me of course) and she is quick to control any situation in the house. Bear is trying to advance his fat butt up the totum pole, but keeps getting rammed back down by Captian Mya. lol Mostly he is just very nosy and curious and has to know what his big sis is up to all the time, and she is a very solitary kind of dog, and doesnt always want him in her face, so she gives him a good nip and he gets the picture. I always correct her though, because the only one who should be *correcting* is me.

Stay on your toes!
 

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Poor Max! You've given me yet another thing to worry about when our puppy comes home - Morgan used to rule supreme over Luther from about the time she was 18 months old. If he challenged her authority, look out! Never mind he was 40lbs bigger and 3 years older.
 

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This is stressful and I'm sorry about Max's bunny. Kai had a toy like that--Piggy--and he would go into a panic if he couldn't find it. I'm sure Max must be confused as to where his bunny is.

This is exactly why I chose Rafi. Chama is fine with both males and females as long as they defer to her. She is an alpha wannabe and gets very stressed out if she has to do a lot of work to stay top dog. I knew I needed a submissive dog who would not challenge her and that's my Rafi Red Bear! He does little things like trying to get to the bed closest to me first but if she says to back off, he backs off. Plus he listens really well to me and I've trained him to wait until she goes down the stairs, out the door, in the house, etc. He also has to do all of this for Cleo, the cat.
 

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I am so sorry Kathy. I know this is very stressful. Jake and Bandit started getting into it a few months before Princess passed. She was Alpha, and I believe they knew she was slowing down. They grew up together for 7 years without any issues until then. Luckily that one nasty fight last year, Ken was home to help me separate them. I know I could never break those 2 up on my own.

Sadly, ever since, I can not and will not allow them loose together unless Ken is home with me. I can not take the chance, especially with my daycare children here, if they were to get into it again with me by myself.

Sorry about Max's baby. Thank goodness, Jake never wants Bandit's Teddy, because that Teddy goes everywhere with Bandit.



They still eyeball eachother on occasion. Once Princess passed, the pack around here was just a mess. Things have since calmed down, but they can not be alone together.

Hugs
 

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These dogs always keep us on our toes, don't they?

It's so natural for them to challenge a weakening leader, but it's so hard for us humans to accept - and I don't think we SHOULD accept it, necessarily, but knowing it's normal should have some consolation (right?). I remember when Dawson was getting weak and wobbly - both physically and mentally - and Trick took over. If Dawson fell down, the dogs would all crowd over him and I really had to get after them to NOT push the old guy. My leadership was tested to the max! And I think that the only way that peace was maintained was because I was pretty tenacious in my demands for peace - I expect you're the same way, Kathy!

I've got some fluctuations in my group right now, too. We just lost the old gal (16 years old) and that's made things a bit weird, even though she wasn't a dominant dog. But with Tazer now 10 months old and obnoxious as all get out, and Trick hitting 12 years pretty soon, I can sure see some changes happening. I'm lucky that Trick is a passive alpha. She is allowed privileges that Tazer will NOT get as long as Trick is around, but she also is okay with allowing Tazer to take toys from her. I know that Tazer will become "top dog" - she is SO naturally dominant that it has to happen. I just expect her to always give in to MY dominance, and there's no argument allowed there.

Tazer has an ex-pen inside and to keep peace here I pen her any time I can't watch her. She drives the other girls crazy (she doesn't seem to have an "off" switch .. *L*) and so she's allowed free time when I can be out there watching, and at any type of challenge I'm right there to stop it. I don't like having to keep her penned, but I like fights even less. And she used to knock Kylee over (the old gal). With Kylee gone, Tazer has a bit more freedom but it's still only on my terms.

It's like a full time job just taking care of the little monsters, isn't it? *LOL* Are you sorry now that you named yours "Havoc"?? There's something to be said about living up to their names!

Melanie and the gang
 

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Can you sneak Max off into a closed room where he can have some private hidden moments with Baby?

No? Of course not. (Zamboni hasn't seen Mickey -- her limp but lovable stuffed Mickey Mouse toy from when she was a puppy 15 years ago -- since we got grabby demanding Camper.)

Sigh...Poor Max.


Darn Dogs. They're just supposed to all be one big happy pack. All. The. Time.

And as soon as mine are, I'll let you know.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have been in Canada all weekend for a tracking seminar with Kayos. Joe reports one small scuffle that he quickly stopped.

Max is having more trouble getting up too....... Poor guy!
 
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