German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
The problem with Novartis's shut-down of their canine pharma plant has become very inconvenient. I had a big supply of Deramaxx that is finally dwindling down to the last few doses. My senior guy is on a very low dose (just 50 mg, once a day), but it makes a big difference in his quality of life. He had been slowing down a lot, despite his glucosamine/chondroitin/msm and fish oil regiment, and he seemed increasingly stiff when he got up. With the Deramaxx, he's clearly feeling better. He's got a spring in his step, and he doesn't plod quite as slowly on his walks. He plays more and just seems to have a better quality of life. There's no doubt it's working, and he's so worth the cost. I also know he's tolerating it very well, as we do regular bloodwork to monitor liver response. The fact that such a low dose is effective for him is terrific....I'm thus very disheartened to have to switch to something else.

I am a bit leery about Rimadyl/Carprofen because it's less specific to Cox-2 and seems to have a higher incidence of adverse reactions. I've never used it with my dogs, though, so I can't compare it first-hand.

Are there any former Deramaxx senior dogs here who have found substitute that compares favorably? (Maybe Previcox?) If so, I'd be very grateful to learn what drug you switched to, and why you are happy with it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24,301 Posts
Tramadol is not a NSAID and is being used a lot, it seems. Will get a couple of links. . .it is definitely a different kind of drug.

Adequan for Dogs is a good article and then she has some at the bottom:
Pain in Dogs and Cats: Introduction and Basics Pain in Dogs and Cats: Injuries, Mild Pain, Arthritis, First Aid Pain in Dogs and Cats: Post-Surgery, Severe Pain
Holistic Care for Pets

that I like.

Also this: DogAware.com Health: Arthritis in Dogs

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_tramadol.html

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/pain/ has some nice info.

I have safely used Metacam, using that liquid to dose way down, weight wise, on one dog, once, but try to steer clear of NSAIDs - you are doing it well though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
Like PP said, Tramadol is not an NSAID but it has worked wonders for London. We had him on both Carprofen and Tramadol for awhile (spinal issues) and as a test I took him off Carprofen for about 10 days. He does great with just the Tramadol - we figure he needs the pain control not the anti inflammatory control on a regular basis. I still keep the other on hand for when over does it on a hike or playing with the younger pups but daily he doesn't use it anymore. Tramadol is cheaper too!

Oh, and I switched back and forth between Deramaxx and Rimadyl with no issues before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for the links and suggestions.

I just made an appointment to talk to a vet about options later today. Adequan's never been offered or suggested by my usual vet, who has been pushing me to switch to Rimadyl. This morning, I made a couple of phone calls and located a different, younger, well-regarded vet who does use Adequan. I've scheduled a consultation to review all possible options to keep my old guy comfortable. I'll ask about Tramadol and Metacam, too.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,483 Posts
Metacam-expensive but it is easy to meter down the liquid. I had my 50lb dog on a 20 lb dose.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts
Here's my suggestion that saved a dog (not mine) from euthinasia two months ago

A product by Genuine Health (may be a canadian company, there is .ca links and .com links so not sure if readily available or has to be shipped), anyhow...It's called "Fast Joint Plus Care" with claims of 5-10 days. Well...5 days my dog went from being completely immobile to getting up to greet me again, within 10 days he was voluntarily going on walks and was smiling again (was hand feeding him as he was in too much pain to go to his bowl)...(he had a knee injury, and was in very bad shape...a long story).

This product mad a huge difference in getting him going so his muscles didn't atrophied any further. I was also using a product called Wobenzyme (still do) for inflammation.
Eventually I couldn't maintain the expence of some suppliments including calcium so I dumped the F.J.P. and calcium and started making ground eggshells, by fluke I happened across a blurb about chicken stock (something I already knew, but...well it was just one more thing to do and I was beat)
I had been rehabilitating him for several months, and he had good days and bad, then Dec. hit and he was baaaad! I thought holy crap, my poor dog at 7 yrs. old and is walking like a 14 yr. old, I was sooo sad, he is too beautiful to have his life cut short.
SO, I grabbed some frozen chicken frames, my slow cooker, some vinigar...Made my first batch on Dec. 29th/2011 (most fat removed prior, and the rest skimmed off - strain bones)...On Jan. 30th/2012, I was preparing to take him on his final walk of the day...he headed into the bedroom (I had made a bed for him next to mine where he slept for 10 months)to "get ready", I went to brush my teeth...then went into my room expecting to kneal down to give him "bellies"...HE WAS ON MY BED!!! I nearly fainted...10 months he couldn't jump up, within 30 days of feeding him chicken stock he was on my bed.
HE didn't go up there again (that I know of) for another month, but was tearing down the road on walks, had a spring in his step again, and now....I can't get the knucklhead off my bed :)

The woman I met two months ago dog exhibited the exact same issues as mine, her vet suggested euthinasia.....within two weeks of FJP and chicken stock, her dog was walking a half an hour, she called me a couple nights ago...he is bounding and swimming and chasing stick and climbing stairs.

Try it, it can't hurt (NEM - on the website link stands for Natural Eggshell Membrane)...you only need 1 per day, and the chicken stock...1/2 cup to a cup...make a huge batch and freeze, but has to be chicken for the cartiledge...(type 11 collegen)

http://www.genuinehealth.com/fast-joint-care-1.html

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31,698 Posts
Talk to your vet about laser therapy. It's made a huge difference in my friends lab with ED. It has no side affects. A vet I talked to had used it on herself and it worked for her. My chiropractor uses it on my herniated disk and on my foot and it works. You need a "loading" dose but then it's just once per month. So initially it will cost more but the monthly maintenance is less than any drugs and won't due damage to the body.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
21,368 Posts
metacam can be gotten much cheaper in the human form of meloxicalm.

I have also used Previcox which is on the same line as the deramaxx, worked great but was rather pricey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
On Friday, I had a long consultation with a new vet, whom I like very much. He's used adequan with a lot of success in GSDs and is very enthusiastic about it. He did the best Ortho exam we've had yet, and he found diminished range of motion, and some pain in the right hip. Simon was such a good guy, just pressing his forehead gently into me to hide his eyes, and yipping when it hurt.

We had a long talk about options. We have decided to try adequan -- Simon's play care is in the same building, so he'll get to go play on shot days, which will make him happy. This new vet's practice is actually in the process of buying a laser therapy machine, so in a few months, that will be an option, too. He's fully on board with trying to develop a comprehensive, multi-pronged approach that will keep Simon as comfortable as possible, as safely as possible, with the least reliance on NSAIDs. I'm not going to let Simon hurt (he's been too good a friend for too many years!), but we're going to try to phase the NSAIDs out as the adequan hopefully takes effect, perhaps with Tramadol or Gabipentin in the arsenal for "bad" days.

This vet also wants me to increase the fish oil from the current 2000 mg to 3000 mg, and maybe higher as long as there's no digestive upset, to boost the natural anti-inflamamatory effect. He likes the other supplements I'm already using (gluc/chondroitin; Prozyme, which has bromelain, another inflammation fighter).

We're doing a fresh, comprehensive set of x-rays today, under sedation. Simon's at the vet now. We'll know more this afternoon, once the vet evaluates the new images.

Gator, I looked up FJP, and I ordered a bottle from Drugstore.com to try. Do you have any articles or links you can point me to regarding the chicken stock (theories about how/why it works)? I'd like to read more about it; this is the first time I've heard of chicken stock being a treatment for joint pain, and I'm interested in learning more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts
On Friday, I had a long consultation with a new vet, whom I like very much. He's used adequan with a lot of success in GSDs and is very enthusiastic about it. He did the best Ortho exam we've had yet, and he found diminished range of motion, and some pain in the right hip. Simon was such a good guy, just pressing his forehead gently into me to hide his eyes, and yipping when it hurt.

We had a long talk about options. We have decided to try adequan -- Simon's play care is in the same building, so he'll get to go play on shot days, which will make him happy. This new vet's practice is actually in the process of buying a laser therapy machine, so in a few months, that will be an option, too. He's fully on board with trying to develop a comprehensive, multi-pronged approach that will keep Simon as comfortable as possible, as safely as possible, with the least reliance on NSAIDs. I'm not going to let Simon hurt (he's been too good a friend for too many years!), but we're going to try to phase the NSAIDs out as the adequan hopefully takes effect, perhaps with Tramadol or Gabipentin in the arsenal for "bad" days.

This vet also wants me to increase the fish oil from the current 2000 mg to 3000 mg, and maybe higher as long as there's no digestive upset, to boost the natural anti-inflamamatory effect. He likes the other supplements I'm already using (gluc/chondroitin; Prozyme, which has bromelain, another inflammation fighter).

We're doing a fresh, comprehensive set of x-rays today, under sedation. Simon's at the vet now. We'll know more this afternoon, once the vet evaluates the new images.

Gator, I looked up FJP, and I ordered a bottle from Drugstore.com to try. Do you have any articles or links you can point me to regarding the chicken stock (theories about how/why it works)? I'd like to read more about it; this is the first time I've heard of chicken stock being a treatment for joint pain, and I'm interested in learning more.
Excellent! I trust you read the Fast Joint Care + link, w/testimonials. You only need one per day, not specific as to with or away from food. It has broad spectrum coverage...the adjuvant of the chicken stock, will further assist in producing collagen - Type 1 in eggshell membraine and Type 11 in chicken cartilage...you can buy suppliments that contain or comprised of Type 11 from chicken sternum, or you can make chicken stock...at $0.02/day.

The theory with chicken stock and using vinigar, is the vinigar extracts all the nutrients - trace minerals from the bones as well as cartilage. The sternum is cartilage a nice big hunk of it. So if you combine the benefits of the Type 11 collagen + trace nutrients in the bones there is better uptake that is natural to the body to recognize and use and in a nice tastey food topping! I will post seperately.

I think w/adequin, FJP and stock, you'll have your poochie off NSAIDS within 5 days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts
Chicken Stock
  • Raw chicken frames - 2 or 3 or 4 depending on size of pot using and amount you want to make
  • Slow cooker or stock pot
  • White or raw apple cider vinigar
Strip as much fat as you can, use kitchen shears.
Toss in as many carcass's as you can fit based on pot you are using.
Add 1 Tablespoon vinigar per carcass

Fill with water to approx. 1 inch above bones
Cover and set slow cooker on high and let simmer for several hours (no hard and fast rule here), turn it to low when it looks like about 1/4" has reduced, continue cooking - go have fun with your dogs...Slow cooker method 24 hours.

Stock pot, same as above, but don't leave unattended, boil, reduce, simmer 8hrs (I prefer slow cooker).

let it cool a bit so as not to steam your face.
Remove bones, strain 2 x at least. You don't want to loose all the sediment, just the bones, so collander is fine (not fine mesh - nutrients could be in the sediment.
Refidgerate overnight.
Skim remaining lard type fat that has hardened to the surface.
If stock is all gelatinous (jelly)...then you cooked it the correct amount of time. If not who cares, it will still start to work.
Stir it up to bring sediment thru
Portion into containers and freeze
Feed 1/2 cup to a cup per day (split a.m/p.m.), in food (I used 1/2 cup on my 85lb. dog and that worked fine...actually...it worked miracles!

Side note here: My dog hurt his knee, suspected CCL tear, he never had surgery. I tried all kinds of things with moderate results. The end of Dec. I made this stock, he started showing improvement...30 days later, he jumped on my bed...he couldn't jump for 10 months. Now I can't get him off my bed, so it's back to sleeping with fur again...But I woouldn't have it any other way.
I should also mention I started grinding eggshells then too for calcium as I couldn't afford the Fast Joint Plus anymore (had been off it for 2 months) had run out of glucosimine and calcium, so made do with what I had to work with...turns out, was the best thing that could have happened!

Let food be your medicine and let your medicne be your food ~ Hippocretes

Bone Appetit
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Oh, dear. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years. I buy Fromm meat-based food and treats for the dogs, but I haven't handled an actual dead animal carcass in decades. I may end up vomiting to do this for him. :sick:

By "chicken frame," do you mean a whole raw chicken from the grocery store? Or is it something different?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts
Oh, dear. I've been vegetarian for over 20 years. I buy Fromm meat-based food and treats for the dogs, but I haven't handled an actual dead animal carcass in decades. I may end up vomiting to do this for him. :sick:

By "chicken frame," do you mean a whole raw chicken from the grocery store? Or is it something different?
LMAO!!!:D...vegetarian handling carcass's...I can see industrial strength rubber gloves on your x-mas wish list

Well I buy frames, they are stripped of the legs wings and muscle meat, so just the spine, back, neck ribs, and breast bone and shoulder flexers (I guess...I'm trying picture a chicken)...I can only get them in chinese grocery stores and get 3-4 to a bag for a buck...Butcher may have or discard, or sell for stock. Using a whole chicken could get pretty expensive
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,798 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
I just had another long conversation with the vet. The good news is the new images confirm that he doesn't have dysplasia. The hips are not terrible. There is a bit of arthritic degeneration, but they aren't the worst hips the vet has seen. Pretty much what I'd expected -- he's got some arthritis, and just like with people, the NSAID makes it feel better. There's no sign of spinal problems in the x-ray (though a bulging disk wouldn't show up anyway...).

The bad news is that the vet has a niggling suspicion that there may be a very early hint of DM (Simon's slow to return his foot when it's knuckled under, and there's some muscle atrophy, despite his daily exercise). The vet had Simon out walking around a while today, to observe movement and gait. There's no crossing over. Given Simon's responsiveness to Deramaxx, and the pain when his hip is manipulated, we're treating the arthritis with adequan . . . and watching and praying no other DM signals ever materialize, since there's just not enough to have more than a vague suspicion at this point. (My dad lost a wonderful GSD to DM, and it's a sad way for a dog to go, so this scares me...).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts
Hi there...don't put the horse before the cart. He is also ana ging dog and reflexes slow. Was the test done prior to x-ray...re: anestesia?

It's hard to have that seed planted especially when it is something that has hit so close to home in past. But just so you know, it scares me too. Just reading up on it and you can almost determine that slight signs although many possiblities, you start going OMG!

However, you can slow the roll of progression, which in essence is treated the same as you would trying to slow aging. It is Degeneration. So you have to look at all the issues of the disease process, the triggers/causes and work from there. I.E. - nerve degeneration - Use B-comples AND extra B-12...Heavy metal toxicity, certain amino acids + apple pectin (binds and removes metal deposits) anti-oxidants, Chiro, smoothing out boney deposits as a result of inflammation - Bromalien/papaya...keeping the cushing strong between the compression of the discs - collagen...Exercise...massage...acupuncture...and NO more vaccinations!!!

Anyhow, here is an explaination of properties of bone stock...Type 11 collagen is only found in chicken however...this is not "clinical" evidence...but it's best I could find as to why it works, you'll get it

The Healing Power of Bone Broth Transition Now
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,091 Posts
I just had another long conversation with the vet. The good news is the new images confirm that he doesn't have dysplasia. The hips are not terrible. There is a bit of arthritic degeneration, but they aren't the worst hips the vet has seen. Pretty much what I'd expected -- he's got some arthritis, and just like with people, the NSAID makes it feel better. There's no sign of spinal problems in the x-ray (though a bulging disk wouldn't show up anyway...).

The bad news is that the vet has a niggling suspicion that there may be a very early hint of DM (Simon's slow to return his foot when it's knuckled under, and there's some muscle atrophy, despite his daily exercise). The vet had Simon out walking around a while today, to observe movement and gait. There's no crossing over. Given Simon's responsiveness to Deramaxx, and the pain when his hip is manipulated, we're treating the arthritis with adequan . . . and watching and praying no other DM signals ever materialize, since there's just not enough to have more than a vague suspicion at this point. (My dad lost a wonderful GSD to DM, and it's a sad way for a dog to go, so this scares me...).
what is dm?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,377 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
I have thought about using Adequan for my 15 year-old, but it is quite pricey. I have had her on Glyco Flex III and saw no side effects and good improvement in her joints.
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top