Czech/DDR lines
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Jane,
Besides Loki's Breeder, I recommend this breeder.
http://www.schraderhausk9.com/index.html
And this one
http://www.vomlinmarc.com/html/about_german_shepherds.html
He can be found on ddrlegends forum, he is Steve Lino.
Besides Loki's Breeder, I recommend this breeder.
http://www.schraderhausk9.com/index.html
And this one
http://www.vomlinmarc.com/html/about_german_shepherds.html
He can be found on ddrlegends forum, he is Steve Lino.
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Many people will tell you that there are less health issues with the DDR/Czech dogs....I will not submit this as fact because it would take an empirical testing to "prove". But I will say two things, Having owned West German showlines/DDR/Czech and Wesy workinglines, my anecedotal information is that my Czech and DDR dogs almost never got sick and were very "HARDY" in terms of not being receptive to anything that comes around...that;s just my experience and one of the reasons i like these dogs. Two. it is a fact that when dogs have been line/inbred for generation after generation on a narrow genepool you will start to see recssive ailment become very prevalent or much more so than should be ordinarily....sooooo draw your own conclusions.
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Hi Jane,
The reason I turned to czech dogs a long time ago was because I had 2 West German dogs in a row that had health problems. Jack had a elbow problem that really cut into his SchH work by the time he was 5 yrs old. I never used him as a stud for that reason. Then I had a pup that had the same problem, that I basically gave away at 6 mo. of age.
So I turned to Czech dogs and haven't turned back. I have had reasonbly good luck health wise with my guys, ie their bloodlines for over 14 years now. My first Czech dog Gonzo just passed away last November. He had a shoulder problem from a helper falling on him when he was 5 yrs old, so no jumping. He sired a few litters over the years and no one had any health issues that I know of.
Lea also passed away last year from a cerebral hemorage while giving birth to my last litter of pups. I had 3 litters with her, and the pups are all doing well. We did have some issues with actually having the first litter of pups, where the pups were basically turned the wrong way. We had some experienced help with us that night as well, but we are an hour from a vet. So we lost several pups that night. Her other litters were fine though. She was 7 years old
Gita lived to 7 years as well, and did have problems getting pregnant. She was a great girl, but only had one pup. Gita developed cancer.
When I got Hex, he had some terrible ear problems, but I believe that was from the previous owners' neglect. He will turn 5 at the end of January.
All of the dogs listed about earned at least SchH3, IPO3, FH2, They all had good hips and elbows. Like most everyone else that does our sport, I pretty much know when my dog is having a problem since we are together a lot of the time. As I mentioned above, I'm pretty happy with the health side of things with the older dogs I mentioned.
I also have a couple of youngsters coming up, Armor & Dobre that seem to be very strong active dogs without any health issues to date. My wife also has an older Czech/DDR female that she never did SchH with, and is 12 years old and is in great shape.
So to sum things up, I feel my 2 girls passed on way too early, but I'm not sure if the problems that did them in would be considered genetic or not. I never had any problems with food, allergies, teeth, etc. I also never had problems with dog aggression either. I'm not sure if that would be a genetic thing, or more environmental.
Al Govednik
The reason I turned to czech dogs a long time ago was because I had 2 West German dogs in a row that had health problems. Jack had a elbow problem that really cut into his SchH work by the time he was 5 yrs old. I never used him as a stud for that reason. Then I had a pup that had the same problem, that I basically gave away at 6 mo. of age.
So I turned to Czech dogs and haven't turned back. I have had reasonbly good luck health wise with my guys, ie their bloodlines for over 14 years now. My first Czech dog Gonzo just passed away last November. He had a shoulder problem from a helper falling on him when he was 5 yrs old, so no jumping. He sired a few litters over the years and no one had any health issues that I know of.
Lea also passed away last year from a cerebral hemorage while giving birth to my last litter of pups. I had 3 litters with her, and the pups are all doing well. We did have some issues with actually having the first litter of pups, where the pups were basically turned the wrong way. We had some experienced help with us that night as well, but we are an hour from a vet. So we lost several pups that night. Her other litters were fine though. She was 7 years old
Gita lived to 7 years as well, and did have problems getting pregnant. She was a great girl, but only had one pup. Gita developed cancer.
When I got Hex, he had some terrible ear problems, but I believe that was from the previous owners' neglect. He will turn 5 at the end of January.
All of the dogs listed about earned at least SchH3, IPO3, FH2, They all had good hips and elbows. Like most everyone else that does our sport, I pretty much know when my dog is having a problem since we are together a lot of the time. As I mentioned above, I'm pretty happy with the health side of things with the older dogs I mentioned.
I also have a couple of youngsters coming up, Armor & Dobre that seem to be very strong active dogs without any health issues to date. My wife also has an older Czech/DDR female that she never did SchH with, and is 12 years old and is in great shape.
So to sum things up, I feel my 2 girls passed on way too early, but I'm not sure if the problems that did them in would be considered genetic or not. I never had any problems with food, allergies, teeth, etc. I also never had problems with dog aggression either. I'm not sure if that would be a genetic thing, or more environmental.
Al Govednik
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why would a breeder not sell a puppy to someone that wants a specific color??? for many years blk&tan was my favorite color now it's blk&red. i go to a breeder with those colors. they shouldn't sell me a puppy because i want a blk&tan or blk&red?? i think a breeder won't sell you a puppy in a certain color because they don't have the color and type of dog you want. you can go to a breeder and pick male or female and i think that's more important than color concerning how you and your puppy/dog match and how the puppy/dog matches your life style. if i go to a breeder and tell them i want a black dog and they dont have black dogs but they have a match for me. are they selling me what i want? the dog they have might be a match but it's not the color i want si am i really happy with it? you can find the color you want and the perfect match. you just need to look at other breeders.
when i bought my puppy i wanted a blk&red puppy. i didn't worry about nerves, tempermant, drive etc. i knew if i found a good breeder the puppy and i would match each other. i bought a imported working , West German show dog. he's from a full line of Schutzhund titled dogs both the males and females. when i bought my puppy i knew i wasn't going to Schutzhund title him. our dog is well trained and super friendly. outside he's very active. inside he's very calm. he retrieves, plays tug, plays with other dogs, sleeps in our bed (sometimes), when horses pass us on the trails there's no reaction. in the summer he goes to nice restaurants with us. we sit on the deck and he lays there quietly. sometimes there's other dogs on the deck but they're well trained also so there's no problem.
i picked my dog by color. i knew if i went to a good breeder there would be no problem. a good breeder, good training, makes a good dog.
when i bought my puppy i wanted a blk&red puppy. i didn't worry about nerves, tempermant, drive etc. i knew if i found a good breeder the puppy and i would match each other. i bought a imported working , West German show dog. he's from a full line of Schutzhund titled dogs both the males and females. when i bought my puppy i knew i wasn't going to Schutzhund title him. our dog is well trained and super friendly. outside he's very active. inside he's very calm. he retrieves, plays tug, plays with other dogs, sleeps in our bed (sometimes), when horses pass us on the trails there's no reaction. in the summer he goes to nice restaurants with us. we sit on the deck and he lays there quietly. sometimes there's other dogs on the deck but they're well trained also so there's no problem.
i picked my dog by color. i knew if i went to a good breeder there would be no problem. a good breeder, good training, makes a good dog.
I have no problem with someone that wants a particular color. I have my own preferences.
But I will only place dogs that are appropriate for the person, drive and personality wise.
I tell them what I have available that fits them and if the color/markings isn't what they prefer I understand.
But I will only place dogs that are appropriate for the person, drive and personality wise.
I tell them what I have available that fits them and if the color/markings isn't what they prefer I understand.
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I think the point luvsables was trying to make is just because I want a black sable, I may not know what I am getting into with this type of dog? Most of the Czech lines, this is the predominant color! But I think I understood her post. Example: if there was only one black dog in the litter and I insisted on it because I wanted a black, even though the breeder knew it wasn't a good match, but just wanted the sale so let me buy it anyway, this would be a breeder to possibly pass on.
But if I really wanted the black sable and had to choose the black, I would wait or go w/ another litter or breeder.
But if I really wanted the black sable and had to choose the black, I would wait or go w/ another litter or breeder.
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I can totally understand someone having a color preference. HOWEVER I can also understand a breeder not wanting to mess with someone that MUST have a certain color.
For instance, someone wants a SUPER DUPER black sable male pup with a certain temperment. The breeder might "get lucky" and have one in the first litter of the buyers choice. OR it might take several litters for the "right puppy in the correct colored wrapper" to come along. I know of folks that have waited thru several litters for the "right puppy in the right color" and had NO ISSUES with waiting a year of more if necessary, but it seems to ME that it would get to be a pain in the rear for the breeder after a while.
I will admit that I too wanted a VERY dark black sable pup. BUT I also told the breeder that in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't the end of the world if I got a lighter sable or even a solid black pup as long as the pups temperment matched what I wanted and NEEDED. As it turns out, Siren was the LIGHTEST one in the litter. I had me choice between her and 2 of the other females in the litter and they were BOTH darker than she was, but she is the one that sounded and acted most like what I wanted as far as temperment goes. (Though the other 2 were fairly close.)
For instance, someone wants a SUPER DUPER black sable male pup with a certain temperment. The breeder might "get lucky" and have one in the first litter of the buyers choice. OR it might take several litters for the "right puppy in the correct colored wrapper" to come along. I know of folks that have waited thru several litters for the "right puppy in the right color" and had NO ISSUES with waiting a year of more if necessary, but it seems to ME that it would get to be a pain in the rear for the breeder after a while.
I will admit that I too wanted a VERY dark black sable pup. BUT I also told the breeder that in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't the end of the world if I got a lighter sable or even a solid black pup as long as the pups temperment matched what I wanted and NEEDED. As it turns out, Siren was the LIGHTEST one in the litter. I had me choice between her and 2 of the other females in the litter and they were BOTH darker than she was, but she is the one that sounded and acted most like what I wanted as far as temperment goes. (Though the other 2 were fairly close.)
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I'll get EVERYONE mad at me, but here goes: In case you honestly just love a certain color, but want a relatively no-fuss dog this time around... why not select from a DDR breeder who does not breed for high-octane sportdogs? I posted a few links in my last reply. Mellow can be a good thing.
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On the other hand, if intense is what you want, even the most easygoing pup in a litter where the breeder selects for high drives will be more intense than many pet folks are accustomed to. This intensity has advantages and disadvantages. Advantages may be the strong desire to work with you to do stuff, if you want a dog nudging you to play often... disadvantages may be reactivity.
I am happy I have
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Grimm. He is very loving. But: He is too intense for me sometimes.
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He is young. These lines stay young a long time. <span style="color: #3333FF">I have learned that folks loving and living with certain lines make it look easy, we aren't all suited to the higher octane pooches, even though others on the forum show cute homelife photos of their similar dogs.</span>
Make your choice based on what you want to live with. Intense or mellow, you can find one in dark sable, if you are willing to really put temperament first. Be wary of someone gushing about her dog's type and lines... if you cannot imagine living the way she does with her dog, including management of drives, energy level, intensity. Each dog IS different... but lines created for more oomph need someone new to those lines to choose wisely and with care.
On the other hand, if intense is what you want, even the most easygoing pup in a litter where the breeder selects for high drives will be more intense than many pet folks are accustomed to. This intensity has advantages and disadvantages. Advantages may be the strong desire to work with you to do stuff, if you want a dog nudging you to play often... disadvantages may be reactivity.
I am happy I have
Make your choice based on what you want to live with. Intense or mellow, you can find one in dark sable, if you are willing to really put temperament first. Be wary of someone gushing about her dog's type and lines... if you cannot imagine living the way she does with her dog, including management of drives, energy level, intensity. Each dog IS different... but lines created for more oomph need someone new to those lines to choose wisely and with care.
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Here are a few photos. Grimm is Czech. Dad is Congo Vikar, Mom is a Xero Pohranicni straze daughter.
The good and the bad: He is strongminded, loving, impatient, kissy, intense, funny, powerful, pushy, smart, reactive, social, and settles well in the house. Medium energy, medium drives. Happy upbeat guy to live with, deeply intuitive (really), who however can be overenthusiastic/impatient/reactive.
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My FAVORITE pic: This shows his dearer, sweeter side... my special, strong-minded,
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loving boy..
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The good and the bad: He is strongminded, loving, impatient, kissy, intense, funny, powerful, pushy, smart, reactive, social, and settles well in the house. Medium energy, medium drives. Happy upbeat guy to live with, deeply intuitive (really), who however can be overenthusiastic/impatient/reactive.
My FAVORITE pic: This shows his dearer, sweeter side... my special, strong-minded,
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Patti, Grimm is one of the reasons I want for my next dog to be from these lines. That and I fell in love with Luke aka The Thug, along with others on this site that have the same coloring. Your description of him forgot to had Hunky Handsome!!
I have a pretty active household, Onyx can be a butt-head, so I know how difficult a stubborn drivey dog can be. She just hasn't got the right temp. for SchH and when we go to training, I usually just observe as now we are doing the protection training(too dark & wintery for tracking) She cannot handle protection phase at all. She would be great in tracking, though. So yes, I will tell the breeder I eventually choose what my goals are, household is like, etc. and hope a great match is made. Most of the breeders I am looking at, the whole litter will be dk sable so shouldnt be hard to do hopefully. I do want a male though, as 3 girls in the house just wouldn't work, I am sure.
I have a pretty active household, Onyx can be a butt-head, so I know how difficult a stubborn drivey dog can be. She just hasn't got the right temp. for SchH and when we go to training, I usually just observe as now we are doing the protection training(too dark & wintery for tracking) She cannot handle protection phase at all. She would be great in tracking, though. So yes, I will tell the breeder I eventually choose what my goals are, household is like, etc. and hope a great match is made. Most of the breeders I am looking at, the whole litter will be dk sable so shouldnt be hard to do hopefully. I do want a male though, as 3 girls in the house just wouldn't work, I am sure.
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Question: what exactly is a black sable? I always thought it meant the dog was really, really, really dark or even bi-colorish, but I see some dogs in this thread that I would have just called "sable".
is this a black sable?
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I guess I would have thought these ones would be black sables....
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...but this one not?
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(these are just random dogs on PDB)
is this a black sable?
I guess I would have thought these ones would be black sables....
...but this one not?
(these are just random dogs on PDB)
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To me, #1 and 3 are more of the blk sable, 2 and 4 look like red sable with dark pigment, the last one looks like a dark sable. I think they are all considered blk.though. It is the bloodline maybe- the reddish ones are mixed w/W.German? and the others are Czech. I am still in the learning stages so could be wrong. Please correct me if I am. They are all beautiful. The pigment down the legs and penciling is the look that I love!! And the eye highlights, stunning...
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LOL, Patti, sounds like Loki to a TOriginally Posted By: BrightelfHere are a few photos. Grimm is Czech. Dad is Congo Vikar, Mom is a Xero Pohranicni straze daughter.
The good and the bad: He is strongminded, loving, impatient, kissy, intense, funny, powerful, pushy, smart, reactive, social, and settles well in the house. Medium energy, medium drives. Happy upbeat guy to live with, deeply intuitive (really), who however can be overenthusiastic/impatient/reactive.
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My FAVORITE pic: This shows his dearer, sweeter side... my special, strong-minded,loving boy..![]()
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Lies, my Loki is a black sable, he should get darker as he gets older)-according to my breeder.
He is related to Patti's Grimm. I think with sables (or black sables), they get darker as they get older (or after their puppy coat is gone? (Patti, is that correct?).
This is Loki's parents.
http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/orry.html
http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/gasi.html
and this is Loki, he is 9 weeks of age.
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Jack, absolutely right.
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Loki will get darker as he matures! Don't be surprised if he seems lighter first though, or if he develops a ring round his tail and a stripe down his back for a few weeks. Baby sables get the eel stripe and the raccoon ring tail thing happenin' sometimes. It's temporary!
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Grimm at 12 weeks:
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Grimm at nearly 2 years:
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Jane, I specificly asked Dari at VanDenHeuvelK9 for "medium, balanced drives, medium energy, stable dog, must be able to be calm & settled in the house." He was the most stable male in the litter, and is deeply intuitive, and astoundingly empathetic... that's the last thing I expected from these lines, but he tenderly, lovingly gravitates towards anyone who is very ill or disabled or elderly, and tiny toddlers, too. He's all heart.
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My challenge is surviving his teenagerhood--
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the teenaged intensity in these lines is a lot to deal with (for me, anyway),even with mental and physical outlets. Expect to get more than you bargained for, so maybe find a wonderfully supportive club ..maybe the one you have for Onxy now?
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who can help you either to
a.) channel that intensity into sport, or
b.) guide you instead to reward each and every CALM moment that dog has in learning self-control.
Grimm would love you if he met you, Jane. Grimm loves everybody!!
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Grimm at 12 weeks:
Grimm at nearly 2 years:
Jane, I specificly asked Dari at VanDenHeuvelK9 for "medium, balanced drives, medium energy, stable dog, must be able to be calm & settled in the house." He was the most stable male in the litter, and is deeply intuitive, and astoundingly empathetic... that's the last thing I expected from these lines, but he tenderly, lovingly gravitates towards anyone who is very ill or disabled or elderly, and tiny toddlers, too. He's all heart.
a.) channel that intensity into sport, or
b.) guide you instead to reward each and every CALM moment that dog has in learning self-control.
Grimm would love you if he met you, Jane. Grimm loves everybody!!
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Not that it really matters, but many people THINK they have a TRUE black sable and often times they don't.
Lies, the only dog I might consider a true black sable out of the dogs you posted is Iltis von der Wildsau, who is the 3rd dog down.
Connie's Puck is also a perfect example of a TRUE black sable. He probably looked black as a puppy.
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Lies, the only dog I might consider a true black sable out of the dogs you posted is Iltis von der Wildsau, who is the 3rd dog down.
Connie's Puck is also a perfect example of a TRUE black sable. He probably looked black as a puppy.
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