German Shepherds Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I havnt' put any pictures up of Cy in awhile so I thought I would post this. One of the guys on the team sent this to me today. Cyrus has started working with scent in barrels. He is coming along so nicely, this dog is a dream! Im so glad he is working out! :wub:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,178 Posts
That cool!!!:thumbup::thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
I havnt' put any pictures up of Cy in awhile so I thought I would post this. One of the guys on the team sent this to me today. Cyrus has started working with scent in barrels. He is coming along so nicely, this dog is a dream! Im so glad he is working out! :wub:

How awesome! I read back at the time of 911 that dogs who do SAR for people can get depressed when all they are finding are deceased bodies.
They brought up a tragedy (can't remember now what it was) that all they were finding were people dead and the dogs were getting so affected by it that they started having people hide in rubble just so the dog would see that he rescued someone who was in fact alive.
I never knew...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
A lot of times you can do "fun" searches after a heavy real life search scenerio to give the dogs some confidence. Have someone hide (in rubble, behind a tree) and when they find them make it super fun with the toy, tugging, high pitched voices etc. You will see this a lot when the dogs dont come up with anything on a search. This way they will continue to want to do it. The dog has to enjoy the work, it has to be fun or they wont want to do it anymore...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
A lot of times you can do "fun" searches after a heavy real life search scenerio to give the dogs some confidence. Have someone hide (in rubble, behind a tree) and when they find them make it super fun with the toy, tugging, high pitched voices etc. You will see this a lot when the dogs dont come up with anything on a search. This way they will continue to want to do it. The dog has to enjoy the work, it has to be fun or they wont want to do it anymore...
Interesting! So is it just for confidence and not that they really feel anything emotionally as the news report said?
This sure has peaked my interest :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Im not sure? There are many dogs that do HRD (human remains detection and cadaver work) I would be curious to hear from someone who trains their dog in this area...Im sure they can definetly sense that there is death and definetly feel tension and tragedy from people around..so I guess it would make a lot of sense that they would react to this. I have heard of many dogs coming back from war and having PTSD.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
Im not sure? There are many dogs that do HRD (human remains detection and cadaver work) I would be curious to hear from someone who trains their dog in this area...Im sure they can definetly sense that there is death and definetly feel tension and tragedy from people around..so I guess it would make a lot of sense that they would react to this. I have heard of many dogs coming back from war and having PTSD.....

Oh my. :(
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,483 Posts
Dogs don't get depressed about finding dead people; people do and the dogs sense their handler's emotion. I imagine a disaster scene is stressful in and of itself.

My dog is very very energized after a weeklong cadaver seminar ( he is a cadaver dog - single purpose) and has never expressed other than extreme excitement upon encountering a large amount of human scent such as a whole body.

I would think the PTSD would be from the constant noise and human emotions....not from the dead bodies.

Some dogs are aversive to Human Remains - those dogs should not be cadaver dogs. And the people have to be able to handle it too. It has not been the few dead people I have seen that has depressed me; it has been being within earshot when a family member finds out and feeling their pain. THAT is when it hits me in the gut. A dead body is just a dead body.

---------------

I think the "depression" you may see on a dog not finding live scent is an area with no live humans in it would be a "negative" area for a live find dog. So they are doing all the work and not getting a reward. Any dog needs a break and a chance to "find" something and get a reward after a long day. I know I take a waterproof match container with one q-tip dipped in blood and after a long day on a cadaver search I take the dog away from the scene, hide the q-tip, and give him a chance to find it and get his reward.

What I don't know on a FEMA live search, does the dog get a reward for an indication? I know on a HRD search the dog is not rewarded at the find unless it is 100% obvious. just a "good work" - mainly because you never reward the dog unless you are 100% sure of what you are rewarding.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,483 Posts
Oh, cool on the barrels, I know Konnie Hein took home a lot of stuff from watching Randy Hare on detection work and putting people on barrels is, I know, one idea she took back and has a whole web page on it. She is a FEMA handler.

Teaching Focused Scenting: March 2009

Is that the approach you are using?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
349 Posts
Dogs don't get depressed about finding dead people; people do and the dogs sense their handler's emotion. I imagine a disaster scene is stressful in and of itself.

My dog is very very energized after a weeklong cadaver seminar ( he is a cadaver dog - single purpose) and has never expressed other than extreme excitement upon encountering a large amount of human scent such as a whole body.

I would think the PTSD would be from the constant noise and human emotions....not from the dead bodies.

Some dogs are aversive to Human Remains - those dogs should not be cadaver dogs. And the people have to be able to handle it too. It has not been the few dead people I have seen that has depressed me; it has been being within earshot when a family member finds out and feeling their pain. THAT is when it hits me in the gut. A dead body is just a dead body.
Thank you for informing us about that. So interesting SAR...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Dogs don't get depressed about finding dead people; people do and the dogs sense their handler's emotion. I imagine a disaster scene is stressful in and of itself.

My dog is very very energized after a weeklong cadaver seminar ( he is a cadaver dog - single purpose) and has never expressed other than extreme excitement upon encountering a large amount of human scent such as a whole body.

I would think the PTSD would be from the constant noise and human emotions....not from the dead bodies.

Some dogs are aversive to Human Remains - those dogs should not be cadaver dogs. And the people have to be able to handle it too. It has not been the few dead people I have seen that has depressed me; it has been being within earshot when a family member finds out and feeling their pain. THAT is when it hits me in the gut. A dead body is just a dead body.

---------------

I think the "depression" you may see on a dog not finding live scent is an area with no live humans in it would be a "negative" area for a live find dog. So they are doing all the work and not getting a reward. Any dog needs a break and a chance to "find" something and get a reward after a long day. I know I take a waterproof match container with one q-tip dipped in blood and after a long day on a cadaver search I take the dog away from the scene, hide the q-tip, and give him a chance to find it and get his reward.

What I don't know on a FEMA live search, does the dog get a reward for an indication? I know on a HRD search the dog is not rewarded at the find unless it is 100% obvious. just a "good work" - mainly because you never reward the dog unless you are 100% sure of what you are rewarding.
I definetly agree that PTSD would be more from the loud noises and stressful environment. I also agree with you that the dogs are much more likely to pick up the stress and sadness from people surrounding them and not necessarily the deceased body. Disaster sites are unbelievably stressful and sad for the people involved and for a dog not to pick up on that would be amazing! We do reward for indication on a live find with FEMA. We very heavily use tugs as a reward, this is definetly what we train with when you doing search scenerios in the rubble and barrels as well. It makes sense that this would be hard to do with HRD though!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Oh, cool on the barrels, I know Konnie Hein took home a lot of stuff from watching Randy Hare on detection work and putting people on barrels is, I know, one idea she took back and has a whole web page on it. She is a FEMA handler.

Teaching Focused Scenting: March 2009

Is that the approach you are using?
I will take a look at it and let you know. My guess would be yes. I know of Konnie, dont know her personally. I actually was considering getting a Mali from her...nice dogs!! The head of our team pointed me in her direction and I think they all work pretty closely together...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Yes that is very much how we do the barrels. With Cyrus we have altered it a little because we have had some difficulties with his bark alert. This was his first time doing the multiple barrels, once he stuck his nose in we rewarded him with the toy. I have video..I will get it posted so you can see how we did it. Basically the handler and dog hide out of sight of the barrels so the dog doesn't see what barrel the person is in, you walk up on a long lead...the dog has to work it out for himself...no interference from handler. Its AMAZING how fast they work it out really. Once they alert at the barrel they get the reward (most use a tug toy and the "victim" will tug with the dog for awhile. This way its not the toy but the game that keeps the dog searching for the person and not the toy itself). We later added in distraction. My trainer sitting on top of a barrel next to the one with the victim in it. As he advances we will put toys in other barrels and he needs to work out that he goes for the victim and not the tugs.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,483 Posts
We very heavily use tugs as a reward, this is definetly what we train with when you doing search scenerios in the rubble and barrels as well. It makes sense that this would be hard to do with HRD though!!!
How so, most people want a dog with either insane tug or ball drive for HRD work. Randy Hare who refined that method (the barrel method but using boxes) teaches detector dogs which is all and HRD dog is..........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Dogs don't get depressed about finding dead people; people do and the dogs sense their handler's emotion. I imagine a disaster scene is stressful in and of itself.

My dog is very very energized after a weeklong cadaver seminar ( he is a cadaver dog - single purpose) and has never expressed other than extreme excitement upon encountering a large amount of human scent such as a whole body.

I would think the PTSD would be from the constant noise and human emotions....not from the dead bodies.

Some dogs are aversive to Human Remains - those dogs should not be cadaver dogs. And the people have to be able to handle it too. It has not been the few dead people I have seen that has depressed me; it has been being within earshot when a family member finds out and feeling their pain. THAT is when it hits me in the gut. A dead body is just a dead body.

---------------

I think the "depression" you may see on a dog not finding live scent is an area with no live humans in it would be a "negative" area for a live find dog. So they are doing all the work and not getting a reward. Any dog needs a break and a chance to "find" something and get a reward after a long day. I know I take a waterproof match container with one q-tip dipped in blood and after a long day on a cadaver search I take the dog away from the scene, hide the q-tip, and give him a chance to find it and get his reward.

What I don't know on a FEMA live search, does the dog get a reward for an indication? I know on a HRD search the dog is not rewarded at the find unless it is 100% obvious. just a "good work" - mainly because you never reward the dog unless you are 100% sure of what you are rewarding.[/QUOTE]

This is what I was commenting on. Not saying that you can reward ever with a toy or a tug, I was just responding to how you can reward unless its 100% and it seems like its probably harder to know if they have hit a scent or not.. I could be wrong in this assumption
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Agree 100% that insane toy drive is essential in SAR... thats what I want in every dog I consider for the job..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,483 Posts
I would say it is a combination of reading body language and the trained indication with HRD. If both are not there, then you don't call it.

But there is still a false alert rate, I know mine is documented on training on unknowns at 2-3% which is decent at least according to SWGDOG. You don't want to reward if the alert is false (for example a dog never trained in a swamp may alert on decomposing wood, a dog never proofed on dead hogs may alert on it.....etc etc.....

We still reward after working a negative area....just for working.....but not quite as intensely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
337 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
I would think 2-3% was pretty good! Im sure there is quite a bit of training behind alerting for just human scent as opposed to any decomposing animal. A dogs nose will ALWAYS fascinate me with how they can distinguish between the two. I have to say Im lucky that we aren't as capable :)
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top