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Hi All,

My current dog has gotten IPO2 and will be going for IPO3 in a few months. However, when I purchased him I bought him from a BYB not knowing any better. Fortunately this BYB bought a Stormfront's Brawnson progency with a nice pedigree so while the father side is all pet / BYB "lines" the mother's side certainly has nice genetics for IPO.

Anyway, with that said, the dog is not an IPO dog. It took a lot of training and effort to get him here to this point and it's all on club level.

Now that I am so involved with IPO I would love a dog that is more suitable for the work.

Now a short word on integrity: I bought my first dog as a pet and only later discovered IPO. As a pet he's great. I also made many training mistakes on him. So he is the product of MY decisions. As such, I am responsible to provide him a great life and that is exactly what I intend to do. I want to ADD a dog, not REPLACE a dog. I understand he is this way because of my choice (in purchasing from a BYB) and MY training.

With that said, I've been considering puppies vs young green dogs. I do not want to import, I'd like to buy a dog within the US.

I am considering a green dog since I work full time and will not be home during the day. I also don't have the energy to housebreak a puppy.

So, if you could, tell me about the advantages vs disadvantages of a puppy vs a young dog. And, how much could a green dog cost compared to a puppy? Finally, anything else I should consider? The only thing I do not want is a titled dog. Not even a BH. I'd like to do it myself.

Any advice will be appreciated :)
 

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No potty training, already health certified, dog can be started right away.

It depends on how much they cost. Some breeders will charge you the puppy price because the dog hasn't done anything great, others will charge 2000-5000 bucks. I paid 1000 Euros for Nala when she was 15 months old and she really is one of the best females you could possibly get.

Shop around. Do you have a helper that can go with you to test the dog?
 

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Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.

Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her. The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)

100%, go look at the dog yourself. If you can bring your helper to work the dog. Do not buy from videos or pictures and know that the seller will ALWAYS exaggerate how great the dog is. Videos and pictures can and usually are manipulated to make the dog look great. If you have no option, tell them to make a video by turning on the camera and do not stop the video at all, let me see the mistakes. If they are editing the video, they are hiding something....no starts and stops....Remember the dog is for sale for a reason, find out what the reason is and decide if that is a reason you can/want to work with.


Good luck with your search, very excisting times :)

Frank
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.

Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her. The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)

100%, go look at the dog yourself. If you can bring your helper to work the dog. Do not buy from videos or pictures and know that the seller will ALWAYS exaggerate how great the dog is. Videos and pictures can and usually are manipulated to make the dog look great. If you have no option, tell them to make a video by turning on the camera and do not stop the video at all, let me see the mistakes. If they are editing the video, they are hiding something....no starts and stops....Remember the dog is for sale for a reason, find out what the reason is and decide if that is a reason you can/want to work with.


Good luck with your search, very excisting times :)

Frank
Thanks Frank! That information is greatly appreciated. Same to Mrs. K! But I can only quote one post at a time :)

That is part of the reason I want to buy in the US. I don't believe videos, and have seen many people on this site and others overpay for what is a very average dog. That's why I was considering doing just that - going with our helper and TD to check out the dog for ourselves.

The price scares me! $4000 but I guess it does even out since you'd pay for the assurance that health is sound and temperament is there, and that the dog hasn't been "ruined" by some event during its developmental stage.


Good point about the dog being for sale for a reason :) That's honestly something I overlooked - people will obviously keep the best dogs around especially breeders.

Decisions decisions...

And Frank - no offense taken! I do not pretend my current dog is something he is not. I understand his limitations and love him regardless (even if I do want to strangle him sometimes ;) )
 

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Puppyhood goes by so fast, and who doesn't work full time?
I don't think 'not having the energy to housebreak a puppy' is a very good excuse when you are going to be taking a dog to IPO3!
Much more time and energy will be put into training than worrying about housebreaking. My pup came fairly housetrained when I picked him up from the breeder...he only had 3 accidents total and had excellent manners in the house.
Franks post is the main reason I'd go with a puppy from a good breeder and not even research looking for a good green young dog.
You could always send a young pup to someone for foundation/housetraining if you really don't want to deal with that fun stage!
 

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Puppyhood goes by so fast, and who doesn't work full time?
I don't think 'not having the energy to housebreak a puppy' is a very good excuse when you are going to be taking a dog to IPO3!
Much more time and energy will be put into training than worrying about housebreaking. My pup came fairly housetrained when I picked him up from the breeder...he only had 3 accidents total and had excellent manners in the house.
Franks post is the main reason I'd go with a puppy from a good breeder and not even research looking for a good green young dog.
You could always send a young pup to someone for foundation/housetraining if you really don't want to deal with that fun stage!
Funny :) You know we all have the things we prefer to spend time on. I will gladly (and have been) wake up at 4AM and go tracking before work. I'll also come home and do obedience after a day's work every day. I will gladly drive 2 hours each way twice a week to spend 20 minutes doing bitework.

What I don't like, is dealing with messing in the house, taking the dog out every freaking hour to potty, coming home to a soiled crate. Taking them to the vet back and forth, etc etc. Sorry, I just don't. Will I do it with a puppy? Of course, I'll put all my energy into it, but I am certainly entitled to my preferences. Don't you agree? That's why I am considering an older dog. I certainly do not work close enough to come walk the pup in the middle of the day nor am I able to telecommute...
 

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Going with a green dog vs a puppy is always a concideration and a personal decision. There are pros and cons to both. I have done both from nothing to IPO3 many times.

Green dogs are not for sale because they are perfect. They are for sale because there is a problem. If there was not a problem they would be keeping him/her. The question has to be, what is the problem, why is he/she for sale. The answer to that question will determine if you want to deal with that problem. Puppies are always a gamble, pick good genetics and take your shot. But because of that gamble, green dogs are always more expensive. I usually find green dogs (10-18 months) with good potential usually run $4000 - $8000 depending on the amount of training/foundation/potential/genetics the green dog shows....You can greatly reduce the risk with hips/elbows (over a puppy) as they can be xrayed and get an idea at the 10 month age and they can get "a" stamped at 12 months.... Buying a green dog (especially if he is a strong dog) you will probably want to keep the 2 dogs separated, kennels or something. You don't want to buy a nice prospect/green dog and then bring him home to be dominated by the older dog...you also don't want him looking up to / learning from the older dog if he is not exactly the strongest dog. (no offense)

100%, go look at the dog yourself. If you can bring your helper to work the dog. Do not buy from videos or pictures and know that the seller will ALWAYS exaggerate how great the dog is. Videos and pictures can and usually are manipulated to make the dog look great. If you have no option, tell them to make a video by turning on the camera and do not stop the video at all, let me see the mistakes. If they are editing the video, they are hiding something....no starts and stops....Remember the dog is for sale for a reason, find out what the reason is and decide if that is a reason you can/want to work with.


Good luck with your search, very excisting times :)

Frank
I disagree somewhat with the bolded part.

There is a whole market for green dogs which is more profitable than just selling puppies so there doesn't have to be a problem. I know breeders that specialize in selling dogs to the police. The police doesn't take puppies, so the good prospects are kept up until they get the A stamp and than sold.

So it's not necessarily because the dog has an issue.
However, you are right, many do sell the dog because there is a problem, be it personal or with the dog.
 

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Not all green dogs are problems....there are a few people who raise out a puppy specifically to sell as green dogs, or get back a pup whose family insisted they understood what they were getting, did the research, wanted to do the sport etc. I have kept back and sold quite a few pups as green dogs - in my case, as I am not in a big active club to sell puppies to members, it has been a way to get youngsters into good working homes! At least 6 or 8 pups were kept back specifically to raise out a bit and all are title....I did the same with my K litter - but due to an accident, the one male is now on co-ownership and another returned due to new baby etc....is doing HGH as I am not in a position to train...he was started as a pup before the reality actually set in on the buyer who was going to do schutzhund, then life got in the way. I am sure there are other small breeders out there like me who raise up a pup to 6 or 8 or 10 months old with the express desire to get them into a working home. Of course, the price is going to be a good bit more than the 8 week old puppy price. Maybe in Germany this is more common and breeders with kennel facilities just raise up unsold pups until they are 'green' dogs...but here it is not so common.....

And yes, I have seen a lot of dogs whose owners are 'washing' them out sell as green dogs or even LE prospects....dogs with training issues....which is going to make it that much harder to find the dog kept back on purpose and raised to be sold to a working home..

Lee
 

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Thanks Frank! That information is greatly appreciated. Same to Mrs. K! But I can only quote one post at a time :)

That is part of the reason I want to buy in the US. I don't believe videos, and have seen many people on this site and others overpay for what is a very average dog. That's why I was considering doing just that - going with our helper and TD to check out the dog for ourselves.

The price scares me! $4000 but I guess it does even out since you'd pay for the assurance that health is sound and temperament is there, and that the dog hasn't been "ruined" by some event during its developmental stage.


Good point about the dog being for sale for a reason :) That's honestly something I overlooked - people will obviously keep the best dogs around especially breeders.

Decisions decisions...

And Frank - no offense taken! I do not pretend my current dog is something he is not. I understand his limitations and love him regardless (even if I do want to strangle him sometimes ;) )
I would honestly shop around. Nala was a lucky catch.

The breeder had promised two females to a good friend of my parents (same guy who trained and took Asko vom Siegelgrund to the Nationals in Germany before he was sold to the US). Only that that friend had quit SchH all together by the time he got Nala.
He saw her potential right away and Mom knew that I was looking for a dog. Even had advised me not to buy another dog and to concentrate on Indra but when they saw her potential they were like "Get her! You'd be stupid not to take her."

There are dogs like that out there. The best thing you can do is to take it slow. If you want a dog "Now!" you are going to end up with something mediocre.
Take your time and you will find the perfect match and do shop around. Take a trusted helper or handler with you.

Also, if anyone says they have great connections and can help you find a dog or sell a dog but won't tell you who that connection is, no matter how long you know these people, tell them politely that you are not interested. Some people are only out to make a quick buck and they will take advantage of any situation, no matter how good and great they are on the field, they are nothing but brokers and "Dog Dealers" when you look behind that facade.
 

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I think good ballparks. The 5-6K range is what I was finding looking (shortly about 2 years ago) at young adult prospects from stock bred for police service. When I was looking a big issue was DOD was snagging good dogs making it competitive; I don't know if that has dropped off now or declining police department budgets have opened up that market.
 

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Just a suggestion to throw in the mix if you do decide to go the puppy route you could hire someone to help with potty chores, petsitter/dog walker. That would decrease the frequnency of accidents and does help speed up the potty training process if you can't be there.

Good luck with your search puppy or young adult. :)

Funny :) You know we all have the things we prefer to spend time on. I will gladly (and have been) wake up at 4AM and go tracking before work. I'll also come home and do obedience after a day's work every day. I will gladly drive 2 hours each way twice a week to spend 20 minutes doing bitework.

What I don't like, is dealing with messing in the house, taking the dog out every freaking hour to potty, coming home to a soiled crate. Taking them to the vet back and forth, etc etc. Sorry, I just don't. Will I do it with a puppy? Of course, I'll put all my energy into it, but I am certainly entitled to my preferences. Don't you agree? That's why I am considering an older dog. I certainly do not work close enough to come walk the pup in the middle of the day nor am I able to telecommute...
 

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I am certainly taking my time with this search. I've spent the past month just thinking if I am ready to get another dog. I will gladly spend a year searching. I might even just take up a "keep your ears open" attitude about it and see if some opportunities come up...

Not sure, but as Frank said: "exciting times!"

:)
 

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Just a suggestion to throw in the mix if you do decide to go the puppy route you could hire someone to help with potty chores, petsitter/dog walker. That would decrease the frequnency of accidents and does help speed up the potty training process if you can't be there.

Good luck with your search puppy or young adult. :)
That is also true, but I don't trust anyone! and the people I do trust live too far away hehe :) Kidding. Good suggestion though
 

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I'm with you on the trust issue!

If you do go that route I would take a look at PSI (Pet Sitters International www.petsit.com) listings of petsitters/walkers in your area.

...and even then I would still do a lot of due diligence, insurance, references and a couple of test runs to make sure it's all good. :)


That is also true, but I don't trust anyone! and the people I do trust live too far away hehe :) Kidding. Good suggestion though
 

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I am certainly taking my time with this search. I've spent the past month just thinking if I am ready to get another dog. I will gladly spend a year searching. I might even just take up a "keep your ears open" attitude about it and see if some opportunities come up...

Not sure, but as Frank said: "exciting times!"

:)

Yep, the keeping your ears open, is the best way to find a dog sometimes. I had completely given up looking for a dog when Mom called and said "Get that female, NOW!" :D

Even though I may never title her because of the distance, she is exceptional and I will title her in something and may it just be lure coursing. :D
 

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While Frank is right that it is usually buyer beware, like Lee has pointed out, there are people who keep back puppies to grow up and bit and sell later. There is a market for green dogs in this country and the fact that buyers have to go over seas to get them makes no sense. Why can they look over seas, but a young dog available here must be for sale "for a reason"?

I have considered raising up a male from my next litter to sell later. I will never keep another male to title (I like working bitches), but know that there is a market for these young dogs.

Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.
 

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Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.
When I did this with Grim, I had two different police trainers in my discipline evaluate him, got x-rayed and blood panels and exam (I paid for the panels and exam) and got an agreement 30 days no questions asked to return him. Obviously I did most of the work up front and we both felt good about the agreement we had. I am not sure if most would do the 30 days but he offered. I already knew he had another 'taker' (one of the police officers who evaluated him for me)
 

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I'm raising a puppy right now for a friend that held him back and there's nothing wrong with him. The reason the breeder held him back was because she got a ton of interest for active family pets, agility, obedience, etc but the pedigree is more appropriate for Schutzhund so she held back the two best puppies. We are taking our time with them. She is in no rush to sell them just to get money or have them gone and we don't mind hanging onto them until they find the best home where they can be worked to their potential. I'm just crazy and like to have a puppy around. The breeder is a good friend of mine so I offered to take one. I would have bought him myself already except that I bred my dog and always planned to get one of his puppies when they are ready in July and I'm not crazy enough to have two puppies in my house at once!

I considered a green dog before I got Pan but found that the biggest thing is finding dogs that were raised the way I raise them, meaning in the house so they are calm in a crate, sleep through the night, potty trained, OK around other dogs, not kenneled dogs. It's hard to find a green dog that was born in a home and raised in a home and doesn't have something wrong with it. Of course a dog with good temperament, nerve, and off switch should transition from kennel to home fairly quickly but in the end I got a baby puppy again because there was so much more to choose from.
 

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While Frank is right that it is usually buyer beware, like Lee has pointed out, there are people who keep back puppies to grow up and bit and sell later. There is a market for green dogs in this country and the fact that buyers have to go over seas to get them makes no sense. Why can they look over seas, but a young dog available here must be for sale "for a reason"?

I have considered raising up a male from my next litter to sell later. I will never keep another male to title (I like working bitches), but know that there is a market for these young dogs.

Figure 2-4X a puppy price for a really nice young dog. Take your time and get experienced help to test the dog for you.
Lisa while you and Lee are correct. I think this practice of holding back pups, raising, imprinting, siocializing and selling as "Green dogs" is MUCH more prevelent in Europe than in the U.S.

They may be a few people in this country doing it but for the most part the breeders/ competitors I know, if they held back a pup to grow up to be 12 months old. If it was THAT awesome, they would keep it for themselves (I know I would).... I think in this country the dog with a "reason" is for sale much more than the dog that was held back, properly socialized, properly imprinted and developed and then sold, plus, in my experiences, that dog I believe would be a lot more money.... My point was only the dog is for sale for a reason. My young dog I have now I got when he was 10 months. He is a great dog, but there was a reason he was for sale. The reason was perfectly acceptable for me and I have not had one single issue with him at all....

I sold a 14 month old (only young dog I have ever sold) because we just didn't mesch... he had super drive, nice tracking, perfect calm grip...he just didn't have enough fight in his heart for me.....Great dog, but he was for sale for a reason.....That reason was not a problem at all for the person who bought him....


When I said there is a "reason" he is for sale, I did not mean to imply it was a big problem....Just a "reason"


Frank
 

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I was looking for a green dog a few months ago. The price range was my biggest deterrent. All the ones I was looking at were between $5k-$8k. I was looking in Europe as it does seem to be more popular there. I have some friends that always get green dogs and have great luck with them. They have does this for about a thousand years now and have many friends and connections to find the right dogs for them. I think a green dog is a much easier way to go.

There are breeders here that hold back dogs to see how their breeding's are matching up. I was told by one breeder they often do this so they can see first hand what they are producing. No second guessing on how someone is raising the dog if you do it yourself. That being said even the green dogs in the states seemed triple or more the puppy price. I ended up going the puppy route and just want him to grow up already haha.
 
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