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I'm not a breeder, and not even entertaining the idea at this point, I'm just curious about this. If you are a breeder, or plan to become one, what do you consider to be of more value, a conformation or a Schutzhund title, and why? I know there are different lines and purposes, so people are breeding for different things, I'm just interested to see what people have to say. Sorry if this is a silly question!
 

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Personally I like the idea of both because you need both to produce the total package which is what the German Shepherd Dog is supposed to be.

That said I think the working temperament is more important to be judged by an independent third party. Structure can be seen pretty much by any one who can interpret the standard. NOT saying that conformation is not AS important but if I had to pick one over the other it would be SCH. Nerve, temperament and working ability is best tested by an independent and objective party.
 

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I want it all!
Although I do not participate in Schutzhund, I still want a dog with a sound mind that can take life in stride. A top show dog is on the road a lot, meeting new people and performing in front of large crowds. But proper structure (and not necessarily what wins at a dog show) is important for being able to perform whatever tasks the dog is asked to do. Both are equally important -- just behind health.
 

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IMO, anything that tests temperament is more important than that which tests structure. While certainly both are important, temperament is of the utmost importance to me. A dog who is a less than ideal representative of the breed from a structural perspective can still have many, many uses from companion to working dog. A dog with faulty temperament can be a heartbreak, or dangerous liability, to anyone and everyone.
 

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Quote:A dog with faulty temperament can be a heartbreak, or dangerous liability, to anyone and everyone.
Totally agree.

From a working dog standpoint structure is also important. Not show dog structure, but sound working structure. A dog that is built incorrectly will not hold up for a long working career. We need to look at both.
 

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I am not a breeder but I would much rather prefer a sound dog over a conformational one.
 

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Quote:"form follows function."
True but you should at least look back and see if it is still following.


I have to have a dog that looks like a German Shepherd. To me, structure matters and you can have both without losing working ability. What I do find disturbing is the working lines who are starting to look like the modern show dogs. Sorry, that structure is not correct, even if it is a working line dog.
 

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Originally Posted By: Vandal
Quote:"form follows function."
True but you should at least look back and see if it is still following.


I have to have a dog that looks like a German Shepherd. To me, structure matters and you can have both without losing working ability. What I do find disturbing is the working lines who are starting to look like the modern show dogs. Sorry, that structure is not correct, even if it is a working line dog.
Exactly my thoughts. I want a dog with a good functional structure, which is NOT what is getting ribbons in the show ring.
 

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FUNCTIONAL is the key word in defining Structure to me, not FASHION.

I come from horses. Conformation is oft over-exaggerated in horses, lending itself to new problems, both in health and performance - QH are the most widely bred in the US for example - conformation breeding and line breeding/inbreeding has led to navicular and HYPP in QH - conformation horses are not functional, they cannot rein or cut cows as they cannot MOVE correctly for those endeavours. This all translates to dogs as well.

I look at breeding as a triangle of priorities - you must have all three or have not bred correctly:

Temperament (includes nerves, social and environmental soundness)
Drive
Functional structure (including health ie hips)

These three must be in balance - a dog with 2 of the three cannot perform satisfactorily in all areas.

Lee
 

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Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum
I look at breeding as a triangle of priorities - you must have all three or have not bred correctly:

Temperament (includes nerves, social and environmental soundness)
Drive
Functional structure (including health ie hips)

These three must be in balance - a dog with 2 of the three cannot perform satisfactorily in all areas.
I think this is a great, simple way to put it.

I have a working line dog and a show line dog. I do Schutzhund and I do dog shows, among lots of other things (both my GSDs do both). I will probably always have one or more of both "types". People can talk all they want about one type being just like the other but honestly I think it just boils down to personal preference. I like both types so I have both types. I like how my show line dog works and I like going to WDA dog shows. I like how my working line dog works and I like doing competitions. My show line dog I refer to as a show line dog. I don't need to add "...that can work!" because anyone is welcome to come watch him train and decide for themselves. My working line dog I call a working line dog....even though she has poor nerves and is a conformation champion, hehe. Individually, my dogs are what I make of them, but as far as type and pedigree, they are what they are and I'm not going to try to convince anyone otherwise.

Now I don't breed but if I did, I would sooner breed a working line SchH3 KKL2 with a sound temperament than a show line SchH3 KKL1 that has a twitchy temperament or is sliding off the sleeve during the protection tests.

I just try to bring out the best in my own dogs. I don't concern myself with bringing down other lines or types that I don't particularly care for. There are shitty dogs on all sides.

As for the original question, if I ever wanted to get into breedings I'd look at Koerungs. That requires SchH titles AND a conformation rating which can be G or better. Depending on what I was breeding for, the KoerKlasse (1 or 2) or what the conformation rating was might be more or less important but I don't see why any breeding dog from any line or type can't get Koer'd.
 

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Originally Posted By: LicanAntai

Exactly my thoughts. I want a dog with a good functional structure, which is NOT what is getting ribbons in the show ring.
So you would pass on a dog that had a show rating, for having a show rating?

Do you think some of the nice working line dogs that have gotten their V-ratings and such are less valuable?
 

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Every knows my feelings on what constitutes a good GS. Some am sure get tired of my rants, but I think thet Vandal is correct in stressing that good structure and working go hand in hand....but many many of us don't know good structure ot good temperament but your point of reference is either today's showlines or today's sch trials.JMO
 

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Originally Posted By: Liesje
Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiExactly my thoughts. I want a dog with a good functional structure, which is NOT what is getting ribbons in the show ring.
Quote: So you would pass on a dog that had a show rating, for having a show rating?
No, I do believe in körungs and I do believe more working people should koerclass their dogs. Less show line would pass with "pronounced" if the judge and the public has the opportunity to compare both at shows.

I would not breed a working line of mine with a show line, for reasons that deserve their own thread.

Quote: Do you think some of the nice working line dogs that have gotten their V-ratings and such are less valuable?
Most of them no, actually I want one of those as the father of my future pup. But yes, some of them are too heavy and angulated to my taste, you can see how the have the drive, but at the moment of the bite they don't do it with all their heart because they just can't.
 

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Quote: Less show line would pass with "pronounced" if the judge and the public has the opportunity to compare both at shows.
Pardon me Lucia while I use your quote to say..... PFFFFFFT!!

The general public...and lots and lots of people involved in showing and SchH have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to the working/temperament side of the equation. Many of the judges do but have decided to ignore that knowledge.

My experience at the Breed Surveys I have attended has proven that to me. What the working lines were doing at the surveys I attended had no impact on how the show dogs were judged. Mostly, the working line dogs were worked correctly and were even hit with the stick, (as the rules require), unlike the show dogs who never saw much a threat at all and certainly not a stick hit. That didn't stop them from letting go, leaving the helper and still being awarded KKL 1 FOR LIFE!

The judges I observed didn't seem to care WHO was watching.

Liesje, when you have seen what has happened over the years, the outright cheating and unethical behavior of judges and competators alike, it just becomes one more thing to be cynical about. That's a hard pill to swallow when you have devoted a huge portion of your life to learning about the dogs, how to train them, what they are 'really' supposed to be, only to watch people, (who have no business even being in the vicinity of a GSD), completely dismantle what the breed once was.

Not many people reading these boards has been a witness to it, so, it is a bit easier for some to accept. This is not a case about "bringing down other lines", it is only ONE breed....at least it used to be. You have to see some of these things for yourself I guess to appreciate how angry it can make you and why people like Cliff ( and me ), are "rantiing".
 

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Originally Posted By: Vandal
Quote: Less show line would pass with "pronounced" if the judge and the public has the opportunity to compare both at shows.
Pardon me Lucia while I use your quote to say..... PFFFFFFT!!

The general public...and lots and lots of people involved in showing and SchH have no idea what they are looking at when it comes to the working/temperament side of the equation. Many of the judges do but have decided to ignore that knowledge.
I don't know about that! I took my mother-in-law to the "protection tests" at the Sieger show this year (which I put in quotes because the performances were so poor that I actually had us pack up and leave) and after just a few she had figured quite a bit out and was asking questions out loud that everyone was asking in their heads but no one ever has the guts to point out (like "why did that one pass when it had to bite the sleeve three times?" "Why did that one pass when it was crawling on its belly?"). I was quite proud of my MIL, just for agreeing to come along in the first place since she does not like GSDs and has no interest in dog events whatsoever, but she did recognize the difference between how the working line and some of the best show lines performed and how the majority of the show lines performed. Maybe we need more general public and less people with agendas.
 

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Originally Posted By: Vandal

Not many people reading these boards has been a witness to it, so, it is a bit easier for some to accept. This is not a case about "bringing down other lines", it is only ONE breed....at least it used to be. You have to see some of these things for yourself I guess to appreciate how angry it can make you and why people like Cliff ( and me ), are "rantiing".
I understand what you are saying and feel lucky that I am not a breeder. I love my dogs and I love doing a variety of activities with them. There is a ton of stuff that goes on in *every* venue I've trained and competed in that makes me sick, but I'd rather just leave myself out of that and do what I enjoy doing with my dogs. I'm not a helper or trainer or breeder, I'm just a "pet" owner with a couple of pets. I go to dog events even when I'm not showing or competing with my own dogs. I don't condone all the political crap and obvious favoritism but I admit I like going whether my dogs fit in or not. Heck, one of my dogs *does* fit that "type" and is still passed up because I'm not hosting the judge, my dog's breeder is not a kiss-ass, and my handler is just getting started so she is not gaining me places based on name recognition. I just go because I like to go. My dog was third from the last at the Sieger show but we had a great time in the ring.

My point about constantly juxtaposing one line vs. another comes from my own confusion about the role that genetics and selective breeding really play when it comes to generalizing "type". If I had to pick one "true" GSD obviously it would be the working line dogs but that said I have already seen plenty of spooky, nervy, and/or drive-less working line dogs. People go on and on about genetics but that just gets me all confused because I have a working line dog who in some situations is spooky and nervy and she won't tug on raw meat let alone bite a sleeve so what does that say about all the supposedly "great" dogs in her pedigree? The genetics are bad, but only when it's a show line dog? So that is what gets me wondering about generalizing one line/type vs. another because for me it just makes more sense to evaluate whatever dog is in front of us. But this is probably not relevant to this thread.
 

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Quote:for me it just makes more sense to evaluate whatever dog is in front of us
I think that was my point. The dogs are supposed to be honestly "evaluated" in breed surveys but that is no longer happening. The breed surveys are now part of the PROBLEM vs being a tool to help serious breeders make smart decisions.
People are either lying or are too ignorant to see what is right in front of their eyes. They make up stories and have tons of "reasons" why their dog didn't too so well. The judges are looking the other way instead of dismissing dogs who have NO BUSINESS being bred, much less recommended for it....for LIFE. lol

None of that matters though because the dog is still SchH 3 V rated KKL 1.........all those things that no longer mean much of anything. What a shame and more people should be ashamed of their part in this mess....but most don't even give it a second thought. The titles are more about marketing than anything else now, they are not telling you much of anything about "the dog in front of you".
 

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I agree that I am rather disgusted with the koer system because of what Anne says - at my first koer - I watched a showline male barely bite, just hanging on get a KKL1 and the handler was jubilent that the dog managed a frontal bite...I saw a National champion do terrific bite work get a KKL1 - and was puzzled at the difference and even more puzzled that no one questioned it...I have seen gawd awful barely sufficient dogs go SG KKL1 as well - too much politics and agendas. My one dog was 1 cm under middle sized, Koer meister says too small - KKL2 - after giveing him an excellent conformation critique and him doing super bitework...yet dogs who were pure caca in the work got KKL1....

I like a good looking dog.....but my idea of a good looking dog is my Csabre....or Griff....not a black and red showline....

Yea, I can rant too....

Lee
 

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Well I totally agree with you all there! I can't stand what the Koerungs have become. It is so laughable and such a shame because it totally undermines those dogs that really deserve it. If my dog was as bad as some I've seen, I would be too embarrassed to even show up, and I'm not even that competitive!!
 
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