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Is this a sable German show line? (same dog both pics)




How about this one?


Is this dog a sable or a black and tan/red? (same dog both pics)





Sometimes it's hard for me to tell! I'm trying to learn exactly what is what.
 

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Well, the first guy's sire is Timo:

who is definately a sable. So I guess checking parentage isn't helpful at all in this case! Unless, of course, Timo is homozygous for sable. Then all his offspring would be sable too. Which they're not. So. . .I still don't know without pulling a hair from that first dog's coat.
 

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http://www.margman.ee/?id=3&keel=ee
Headshot of Margman Torsten, the first dog posted. Looks sable to me. I love to see showline sables! And this guy is just gorgeous. What a face.

The dog doing the B&H and the retrieve over A-Frame is a toughie. Looks like a very nice black and tan but I'm probably wrong on that.
 

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Kindasorta OT, but man, Torsten's a beauty and a half! Check out some of his progeny:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/472198.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/420619.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/448615.html (VERY dark face)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/420618.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/495569.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/495558.html

I guess there's no question now, Torsten's a sable. And man, does he ever reproduce color/pigment well. All of you know I'm not a showline fan, but this guy's got me regardless.
 

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Maybe someone could clue me in on what the difference is between mixed black coat versus a sable? I was thinking sables were mostly black.

My puppy is black on top with a black/off-white underbelly and cream/tan face markings and legs.
 

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You're describing classic black & tan saddle markings.

Sable is two different pigment colors on the same hair shaft--light at one end of the hair and dark at the other.

There are both light and dark sable dogs.
 

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This dog is a sable, and he's more the traditional unpatterned type than some of the sables pictured in this thread that have clear saddle type patterns to their coat.

I don't have any close up photos of individual hairs, but if you look closely (particularly at the ruff around his neck and shoulders) you can see what Tracy is talking about with individual hairs being different colors. Where the black markings are the hair isn't entirely black all the way through, it's tanish at the base, with black tips at the ends.

 

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I can't really tell with mine yet. She still has her puppy coat. She's probably a saddle coat. But I have noticed the brown areas are getting more visible. When does the adult fur kick in?
 

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Sables are very easy to tell when young puppies.

They are a grayish brown with bits of black here and there, not the usual solid black body with small tan markings. They tend to be darker at birth, then lighten a lot over the next few weeks, then go through phases of being darker/lighter while they have their puppy coats. With patterned sables it can get harder to tell with age, whereas it's obvious when young.

If your dog was/is grayish tan as a pup, it's a sable. If it was/is mostly black as a pup, it's black & tan.

Photos of sable puppies:







 

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To further complicate matters, many (most?) saddle-back dogs have some sable areas on them. Luca is an American-bred dog with classic black and tan markings, but he has a patch of distinctly sable hairs between his shoulders.

I don't know, but suspect that sable is the "natural" color of the dogs and that the segregation of the dark and light hairs in the the 2-color dogs is due to selective breeding for that pattern.
 

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the first two ARE show sables.

the third and fourth - probably a saddled out sable - I know the field and the helper - who is the dog? that looks like photo that I should know


Lee
 

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Originally Posted By: Luca_stl Luca is an American-bred dog with classic black and tan markings, but he has a patch of distinctly sable hairs between his shoulders.
This is called a "Bitch Stripe", though it occurs in both males and females, being more common in neutered males than intact ones. It develops as the dog ages, often completely absent when young and expanding as the dog gets older. It's not related to sable and the patterns to the hair shafts are different. I've heard many times that it is related to hormone levels impacting melanin expression in the hair. Not sure if that's really the case (it's not something I've put much effort into finding out). But it is unrelated to sable.


Bitch striping can also occur in sables too. It's just less noticeable since the whole dog is usually more variable, without a huge field of black on their back.
 

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Oh boy!! those pups...


Since we are in the subject: There is a way to know in a B/T pup what the pattern will be? (heterozygous sable parents, so they are of no help)
 

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Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiOh boy!! those pups...


Since we are in the subject: There is a way to know in a B/T pup what the pattern will be? (heterozygous sable parents, so they are of no help)
At birth, not really. By the time they're old enough to go to new homes around 8 weeks, usually but not always.

The darker the parents (evey with sables), typically the darker the pups. But that's just "typically", not always.

So I bet that really didn't help much.
 

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I'm curious - if tarheels and toe penciling is bicolor trait, why is it so common in the darker sables? Ghost has both tarheels and toe penciling and I've seen many pictures of other sables that also have these marks.

Kris
 

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Hard to explain... but just because a trait is commonly found in certain colors doesn't mean it's exclusive to that color.

Yes, tarheels and toe penciling occur in most bi-colors, but they're not really a "bi-color trait" in the sense that they don't help define the dog as a bi-color. And thus they can occur in other colors as well.

They appear to be inherited separately from general color and pattern. Either they are linked somehow to the colors for sable and bi-color and are inherited together, and unable to link with B&T genes or (more likely IMO) the genes that cause the B&T color do so by prohibiting melanin expression on the legs, which would prohibit harheels and toe penciling too and explains why B&T dogs never have tarheels or toe penciling, while other colors can. Blacks might carry tarheels and toe penciling as well.. we just can't see it.
 
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