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Ok so I read Pukka's Promise. Am not overly wowed - thought there was some good info, some bad. But he discusses COI

I would like to know more about this tool (which obviously would require a ton of work and proper software to go back because 10 generations back or whatever you may have extensive backmassing on one dog (the Fero examples given) or Litter (Like Troll/Timmy) .........

What are the breeder's insights on this.?
 

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I think when you get back to 10 gens you get more back masking on Greif zum lahntal
Than anything. What he does with that much back masking I don't know but all our west working lines are very heavy in him.
 

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Me, personally or working lines in general? I can see Greif twice in 7 generations on mine but can't see 10. Or the impact of a lot of back massing on one dog 10 generations vs less in 6 generations.

I know you can have extensive dogs repeated in back ground NOT show up as linebreeding because they are not replicated between the sire and dam but the sire or dam is themselves heavily linebred.

Oh gosh just trying to understand. thought it was an interesting read. I mean they all go back to Horand and actually a fairly small founding population.
 

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Well my own dog goes back to Greif 11 times in 8 generations. I would call that back masking. How it affects him, I don't really know. He only goes to Fero twice so I don't think that is much to worry about. But I am sure the back masking on Greif has some influence for good or bad.
 

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Deja has only 5 crosses to Greif and her great grandmother was inbred on Mink 2-2 (who goes back on Grief). Elena also has only 5 crosses (3 coming from mom and 2 from dad).

The dogs that probably have had the most influence in our working lines would be, IMO, Bernd Lierberg and his brothers and littermates.
 

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is this a good motivation for keeping the lines eg, east, west, show, work.... as seperate races eg call them official breeds as when the lines are crossed into each other there is absolutely nowhere left to go eventually, this would be the oppossite of genetic biodiversity i think or actually heavy line breeding and keeping seperate family lines actually is preserving genetic biodiversity - confused myself.

asked ths way; super stud dog comes along, breeders see that this dog can improve their lines so he gets into a lot of lines, individually these lines have improved, a good thing, yet more globally the genetic diversity caused by outcrossing has decreased for the breed = bad thing??
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I guess probably the best thing is not to breed so heavily on any one stud...However I think the founding population was simply too small. I don't know how to do this COI cacluation or what it really means...because it is cumulative so it seems to me you would have to go all the way back to the founding population. which is narrower than wide.
 

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I did a quick check of my winsys - just loaded it again - had lost it with a computer replacement a couple of years ago, so just updated it....lost all my pictures too (added ones)....I can't figure out how to get the breeding COI but I thought it had been mentioned in the group at one point....when I have a couple of minutes I will check again.

Lee
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I am wondering about his premise and also I read that one COI calculation - the predominant one does not take into account multiple ancestors who don't cross the sire/dam line

For example though my dog's sire is 5,5,5-5 on Cordon An Sat there is zero cordon an-sat in the dam. So there is zero linebreeding on him even though he is the most "repeated dog in the pedigree" (in the first few generations-obviously that would change when you get to the point where the Czech, West German, and in our case DKK lines separated). That said, when we get way down they are all going to have repeated horand v grafrath.

I remember reading a siberian husky article that said you really needed at least 75 genetically separate individuals to start a breed and that was simply not done around the time most of these breeds were developed.

It is really more of a question about the significance of this COI (or not) in breeding practices. I am going to assume the premise the less inbreeding, the less consistency genetically but the more potential for robustness. ie you *have* to have inbreeding to have a breed in the first place.
 
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