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http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/172341-senior-peeing-house.html#post2341535

Bloodwork today showed early stages of chronic renal failure. We are moving forward with getting her nasty infected teeth out today to get rid of that poison (and I'm sure that contributed to the CRF).

Diet - Raw diet. Doc suggested reducing protein. BUT..isn't the key to reduce phosphorus more than protein? Any input on this?

Fluid intake - anything special? just increased water? does she need added electrolytes?

Anything else to take out of her diet? Fatty items like pork?

Vege/Fruit to replace part of her meat portion - what ones? Again, is phosphorus a concern? What to keep carbs low due to possible mast cell tumor. So what foods are good and BALANCED?
 

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No knowledge on any of the diet questions...wish I could help. Just wanted to say sorry you are going through all of this with her.
 

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Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice. :(
 

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I have a 20+ year old cat suffering with kidney disease. In my case the cat will only eat certain foods. Hills makes a special canned Kidney diet that is helping. When we started the subcutaneous fluids, the test results swung back to almost normal ranges. These are the things that were recommended to me. Good luck.
 

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what I am sending you will provide the fats -- high in omega 3 and natural complex 4 tocopherols , 4 tocotrienol Vitamin E. Most vitamin E capsules are alpha tocopherol (for human use) . A complete Vitamin E would have alpha, beta , gamma (high interest in studies for anti cancer) and delta . A sample of some research just to whet your interest
Differences Between Alpha and Gamma Tocopherol

Alpha tocopherol is the best known form of vitamin E and is found in the largest quantities in blood and tissue. It is critical, however, for anyone supplementing with vitamin E to make sure they are also getting adequate gamma tocopherol each day.
The key benefit is gamma tocopherol’s ability to dramatically reduce inflammatory threats, a major cause of virtually all degenerative diseases. Current research supports the importance of gamma tocopherol in preventing numerous components of the degenerative diseases associated with aging.2,3
Atherosclerosis
Although little known to the general public, gamma tocopherol is the form of vitamin E most prevalent in our natural diets. In addition to it’s impressive antioxidant capacity, gamma tocopherol possesses key functions critical to our well-being.4,5 It is now recognized that gamma tocopherol, like alpha tocopherol, is retained in the body and delivered to tissues.6
Gamma tocopherol has far more powerful anti-inflammatory actions than does the alpha form. Further, it is more potent at inhibiting certain inflammatory cytokines in cell culture and in living animals.7-9 And it inhibits production of stress-related “heat shock proteins” that result from inflammatory stimuli.10 Kidney dialysis patients, with huge inflammatory stresses, show reduced markers of inflammation when supplemented with gamma tocopherol.11
A complete E would have alpha , beta, gamma and delta tocotrienol. Gamma trocotrienol triggers cancer cell apotosis . Tocotrienols " “results demonstrate that gamma-tocotrienol is a potent inhibitor of NF-kappaB activation, which may explain its anti-angiogenic, anti-proliferative, proapoptotic, antimetastatic, anti-inflammatory, and immunomodulatory effects.” Moreover, they pointed out that their “data are in agreement with other published reports that tocotrienol is a superior molecule among the members of the family of Vitamin E” (13).

The new oil has one of the richest sources for omega 3 , and the richest sources for complex E , complete 4 tocopherols , 4 tocotrienols plus gamma oryzanol which has shown to counter the effects of chemotherapy and radiation . Animal studies have shown promising results in cancer .

The Vitamin E used in commercial dog food is alpha tocopherol , most likey a synthetic form , indicated by dl - prefix -- which is just not the same as a natural for --

"Alpha-tocopherol is the most biologically active form of vitamin E, and its natural form consists of one isomer.

In contrast, synthetic alpha-tocopherol contains eight different isomers, of which only one (about 12 percent of the synthetic molecule) is identical to natural vitamin E.

The other seven isomers range in potency from 21 percent to 90 percent of natural d-alpha-tocopherol.

This may appear to be arcane nutritional chemistry, but it is key to understanding how the body absorbs natural and synthetic supplements differently.

Molecular structure determines how the body uses vitamin E. Researchers have found that natural vitamin E assimilates far better than synthetic versions. Specific binding and transport proteins produced in the liver select the natural d-alpha form of vitamin E and largely ignore all other forms."

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs



 

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Seems reasonable and makes sense health wise. Of course the disclaimer is I am a no expert.;) I don't even play one on TV!!

Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice. :(
I know it's easy to feel at fault....but please don't. There are some things you just can't know. Had I been in the same situation I would have assumed the same thing about the tumor and not opted for dental work . If that helps at all.......You obviously love her very much and take great care of her, so please don't beat yourself up.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks Carmen. That covers the fatty oils completely. Your Feed-Sentials will cover keeping her diet balanced so I'll have to order that since I only ordered the Sunday Sundae with some samples of feed-sentials and the oil.

so, the only question I have is phosphorus vs protein requirements. I'll have to look up the amounts in all the foods we feed her and figure out what to sub in to keep the phosphorus levels low. I know we have a mix of turkey neck and hearts down there that will be high in phosphorus.
 

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Thank you mysweetkaos. I wonder if her kidney function will recover some when the teeth are gone and the toxins are removed from her system. I hope so. I'm sure she'll feel better. She was boxing DH and Jax this morning before we left. :)
 

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Thank you mysweetkaos. I wonder if her kidney function will recover some when the teeth are gone and the toxins are removed from her system. I hope so. I'm sure she'll feel better. She was boxing DH and Jax this morning before we left. :)
It would stand to reason that once her kidneys are not having the extra toxin from her teeth that that energy could go elsewhere. I used to work as a nurse (before I became caretaker to 3 kids and 2 dogs:D) So from human standpoint yes it would help. I did my grandpa's dialysis for a few years, so I know a "little" about kidneys. As for food....I don't know much. I know wellness core is high in protien, but not sure on phosphorus levels....it looks like you feed raw though....so I have beyond no knowledge, if that's possible:blush: Isn't it nice to see when our seniors get crazy bursts of energy....sounds silly but nothing makes me happier than watching Kaos chase Sherman and trying to fit his whole head in his mouth, that means it's a good day!!
 

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I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.
 

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Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice. :(
I'm sure it wasn't just that, although dental disease can cause heart and kidney problems. The kidneys are constantly filtering the blood and any other foreign substances along with bacteria, can really wreak havoc.
If it's mild, I'd suggest getting the teeth out and keeping her on antibiotics for up to a month, at the very least, 2 straight weeks. This may help mend the kidneys some.

When our little Dachshund ate ibuprofen and almost killed himself, he was left with mild kidney failure. We were advised to put him on "diet" kibble. We chose Avoderm at 18% protein, but they changed formulas. The best we can do now is Natural Balance as it's lower in fat, protein and calories. That is what I'd advise you feed your dog. It's good nutrition and would meet the "diet food" requirement of lower protein, not that you want to avoid the protein but a reduced amount will give the kidneys a break.
 

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I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.
No, just water is fine. Water and a quality diet will replace whatever electrolytes she may be losing.
 

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I kept our late Blue alive for over 3 years using a protocol developed by Lew Olson www.b-naturals.com (look in the newsletter/recipe section for info.) and he was in a chronic state throughout - we had to give subcutaneous fluids on a regular basis. It doesn't sound as though your dog is that far along, but an appropriate diet is key to management. (And contrary to what a lot of vets will tell you your dog NEEDS protein. You just have to watch the phosphorus levels). Lew told me to put Blue on 50% protein/50%carbohydrates. A typical meal for him consisted of raw hamburger (you can also lightly cook it if you like) or chicken, pork or lamb, plus a mixture of Japanese (sticky) rice, and sweet potato or squash. He could have butter, cream, or grated cheese to spark up the taste and add calories.You use ground eggshell (NOT bonemeal, which is high in phosphorus) for calcium. It's a simple diet, and there are variations, such as using Malt-O-Meal instead of rice, and egg whites. See the website for other ingredients, and necessary supplements. CoQ10 is one of them......

Another good resource is www.dogaware.com
where you can find tables listing the phosphorus counts of many different foods.

I did not give anything but water for liquid - but he was getting additonal items in the subcu. fluids.
_______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:
 

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I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.

I don't have time to do it right now (I have family coming in for 2nd round of holiday madness)....the one thing I can think of is Raw Apple cidar vinegar, but would have to "investigate" further. Only issue I am not sure on is it may have too much potassium. Worth researching though I know it can help balance nutrient losses and is chalked full of good stuff. Other than that, you could do subq injections at home I believe as a maintenance if your vet feels it is necessary.
 

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Please do not use anything with sodium in it for your dog..kidney disease causes hi blood pressure and so does salt and electrolytes ask your vet about supplements.
It is correct to advise a low protein diet and you are.correct about the phosphorous!
It cannot be flushed by the kidneys and gathers and causes crystals in the blood stream, this can be taken care with a phosphorous binder taken with meals.
Another blood level to keep an eye on is potassium,it can be either hi or low.

You need to ask about the Gfr, glomer filtration rate, it is an index in which you see how far the disease has progressed
 

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I already posted the supplement suggestions on the other board. I would order those--I know many people who have used them for dogs and they really helped.

Cleo's rotten teeth were pulled and that didn't change her kidney values in any way.

SubQs are not recommended for regular use until they are necessary. Until then add water to her regular diet and provide her with lots of water bowls and preferably one of those fountains with the circulating water.

Cleo had CRF and peed every few hours so that may be the reason for the peeing on the floor.

You don't need a phosphorous binder until the phosphorous is high. Cleo had CRF for 3 years and never needed a binder. In fact, her phosphorous levels came down.

You want high quality proteins. I know in cats it's recommended to stay away from beef and other red meats (harder to process) and not to give too much fish.

I'm sure there's a yahoo group for CRF in dogs. I found the one for cats very helpful for Cleo
 

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I printed your post, Ruth. Thanks for those. Carmen's probiotic supplement has all of what the one has plus. I'm reading about binders right now. Says if her levels don't come down then add binders. Looking up nutrient info on the food we already have mixed up. Unfortunately turkey neck which seems to be crazy high but I'll see if I can balance it out with vege's or have to feed it to another.

Looks like I need to change her diet and get her levels retested in a month from what I'm reading. Still haven't talked to the vet. He had some emergency farm calls so she is in surgery right now.
 

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Look up egg whites. I remember that those are low in phosphorous. Perhaps you can supplement with those.

Are her phos levels high now?

And remember that BUN is hydration while Creatine is an indicator of overall kidney function.
 
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