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Good Morning All,
I was off the last few days helping my female get through her spay recovery. I wanted to share some of what we went through with her since as much as I thought I was prepared... I was not.

We have a male and female who are very bonded. Months ago we started separate training and time alone with them. They were fine being away from each other as long as we were with them. We thought we had done everything we could to prepare for this time when they would be separated for Choncheese to get spayed.

We decided to get our female spayed now because our male is already very active with her and we do not want puppies. We waited till she was 7 months and her vulva progressed enough to where she wouldn't have any long term issues (she had an outie). We did not want to risk her going into heat and them mating.

The 1st night we brought her home we had her in the hallway, gated off and away from our male. She was still under anesthesia and had on the cone of shame. I woke up at 1am to find her in the living room on the couch. She had climbed/jumped her 4' high gate and made her way on top of the couch. None of which she should have done... So I spent the rest of the night with her in my step daughters room. She was calm in there. During the day she would sleep in our bathroom, which was nice and cold while I tried to work.

The 2nd night we set her up, what we thought was safe and secure, back in my step daughters bedroom. I woke up at midnight to check on her to find her screaming in panic. Jumping/bouncing off the walls and door. She had figured out a way to boost herself up to the window where our male had ripped the screen off on the other side and they were trying to get it open for her to escape. It took me over an hour to calm her down, she had ripped a lot of her glued sutures open which I had to go back to the vet the next morning to get cleaned and re-glue.

The vet told me she would need to be crated as much as possible for her to stay calm, rest and recover. She also gave us sedatives because she had done so much damage she did not want to risk her doing anything else to delay recovery. So sad to say but she is now crated during the day when I am not with her and at night next to me when we sleep. I take her outside to go to the bathroom, walk around and get some movement but then she is back in the crate. She seems to understand that is where she needs to be but her stress comes when she is left alone. She needs to be with 1 of us or with our male. Its been a very hard process … I just want to stress to anyone the importance of crating your dog when they need to be. We never used crates because the dogs were amazing in the backyard but this has been a huge eye opener.


Here are some pics from the process so far... Saturday is the day the 2 lovers get to reunite 100% and WE ALL can not wait for it :)

Side Note: we used the Suitical with her and she loved it. She didn't have to use the cone after the 1st few days where we knew she wouldn't go after her incision.
 

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I'd add make sure your dogs are crate trained AND can be totally alone if you have a bigger family.

I brought home a new puppy last summer and he is my 3rd dog. I made sure he got put in a crate and left entirely alone the first day I had him (he was 4 months old, not a baby, baby). I have made sure regularly ever since that he gets crated and all the people and all the other dogs leave. It is a normal thing. With a group of 3 dogs I felt I had to make sure he didn't get it in his head that nap time would always include the other dogs.

You never know what will happen and your dogs have to be able to cope.
 

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What a disaster. Poor girl.

This is why we advise against two puppies.
This is why we promote crate training
This is why we advise separate training and handling for multi dog households.

I personally find it sad that a young, growing dog was spayed simply for convenience. That said, you do you and I sincerely wish you and the dogs the best.

I hope that your post serves as a caution for others. I would only add that barrier training is something else that gets ignored. With the exception of Bud, no dog raised in my house will cross a barrier of any kind. I can keep Shadow in a room with a carboard box. The fence around my front yard was hip height. I once did a demo where I stopped all 16 of my then dogs, mid game, with a 2x4 across a doorway.
 

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I am not sure why your vet did not advise crating her except for potty walks in the first place. Spay surgeries may be routine but it still is major surgery. Personally, I would have had her crated at night with me just as a precautionary measure from night one. I don't see this as a multi dog problem but a general issue that could have been better planned right from the start.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
What a disaster. Poor girl.

This is why we advise against two puppies.
This is why we promote crate training
This is why we advise separate training and handling for multi dog households.

I personally find it sad that a young, growing dog was spayed simply for convenience. That said, you do you and I sincerely wish you and the dogs the best.

I hope that your post serves as a caution for others. I would only add that barrier training is something else that gets ignored. With the exception of Bud, no dog raised in my house will cross a barrier of any kind. I can keep Shadow in a room with a carboard box. The fence around my front yard was hip height. I once did a demo where I stopped all 16 of my then dogs, mid game, with a 2x4 across a doorway.

I am defiantly pro-crate now! Even if you don't have to use it everyday - train them to use it early so you are covered need be.
2 Puppies is a lot of work, we have loved having them though and yes, separate training we started early. They have both been fine away from each other... I think the distress in our female made our male more concerned. They love each other, what can I say.

We spayed her to be 100% sure she could not mate. It would be irresponsible for us to keep them both and not safeguard them against mating. You may have had success keeping your females in heat away from the males to prevent puppies but we wanted to be 100% positive. Also our female has already displayed some behavioral issues we didn't want to escalate with growing hormones. Our male is such a sweet boy but our female is dramatic, loud and bossy.

I just wanted to share that even being home with her, doing all the research, going through the spay process with other dogs so you feel educated... you can not always be prepared and promoting crating is a great way to be safe. I looked up a lot of posts on spaying before this and I wanted all the ugly to be out there so people could be ready!
 
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I am not sure why your vet did not advise crating her except for potty walks in the first place. Spay surgeries may be routine but it still is major surgery. Personally, I would have had her crated at night with me just as a precautionary measure from night one. I don't see this as a multi dog problem but a general issue that could have been better planned right from the start.
Our vet recommended keeping her away from other dogs, in a safe, quiet place where she could not harm herself. I didn't have a clue she would hop the gate the 1st night. Nor did I think she would try to break out a window. When we went back to the vet for the re-glue, the vet advised on the crate, 100%, in Chon's situation since she is so high strung and active.

Point of this post is to show the importance of crating - even if you never think you will need it, train them to feel safe in the crate regardless because if you need to have them in 1, you will need them to feel comfortable 1st. The behavior she has showed in the last few days is not normal for her. Choncheese has always been very independent. She loves being with our male and with us but is totally fine laying in the other room away from us as well. She is feisty and usually tells our male to back off and leave her be. I would have never guessed she would try so hard to be with him or act so crazy to be with us. She has never been a clingy dog, never cared where we were unless we called for her or it was time to eat. The surgery has brought out a whole new side to her and has taught me a lot.
 

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2 Puppies is a lot of work, we have loved having them though and yes, separate training we started early. They have both been fine away from each other... I think the distress in our female made our male more concerned. They love each other, what can I say.

We spayed her to be 100% sure she could not mate. It would be irresponsible for us to keep them both and not safeguard them against mating. You may have had success keeping your females in heat away from the males to prevent puppies but we wanted to be 100% positive. Also our female has already displayed some behavioral issues we didn't want to escalate with growing hormones. Our male is such a sweet boy but our female is dramatic, loud and bossy.
You did right by getting two puppies--most dogs need the company of other dogs, and nothing makes a puppy happier than a compatible puppy buddy.

You also did right by spaying her. It was very responsible on your part. Also, if you spayed her before she ever came into heat, you reduced her risk of breast cancer to almost zero. She will also never get pyometra. The studies that supposedly suggest an increased risk of cancer in spayed dogs are seriously flawed and their conclusions are not credible.
 

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You did right by getting two puppies--most dogs need the company of other dogs, and nothing makes a puppy happier than a compatible puppy buddy.

You also did right by spaying her. It was very responsible on your part. Also, if you spayed her before she ever came into heat, you reduced her risk of breast cancer to almost zero. She will also never get pyometra. The studies that supposedly suggest an increased risk of cancer in spayed dogs are seriously flawed and their conclusions are not credible.
Thank you, I know this is not what most people on this forum believe but I appreciate the support. Our male needed a partner, we wanted him to have 1 as well and we chose the perfect companion for him. We trained separately and got them at the right age/time for them to take direction from us but also take to each other. They are both great with other dogs, people and love our family.

The have different personalities but even each other out. The way our female has acted the last few days is very different then her normal behavior, its been interesting (and frustrating) but we are getting through it and learned so much. She is healing very well and her & I now have a bond that wasn't as strong before because she was so independent.
 

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Our male needed a partner, we wanted him to have 1 as well and we chose the perfect companion for him. We trained separately and got them at the right age/time for them to take direction from us but also take to each other. They are both great with other dogs, people and love our family.
I really appreciate folks like you who do right by their dogs.

The next time someone dumps on you for caring so much about your dogs that you took on the added inconvenience of another puppy, suggest that they read this article by Suzanne Clothier:

Of Hostages & Relationships - Suzanne Clothier/Carpe Canem Inc.
 

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I got halfway through the article before I gave up. Talk about one extreme to another! I think this forum is great for a lot of things, including differing opinions. I’ve had my eyes opened to a number of things I would have never thought of or researched on my own. Altering is one, and titter vs annual boosters being another. The one draw back I’ve found to the forum is people becoming hyper focused on their dogs, their dogs behaviors and how to correct them (when it’s not an issue and wouldn’t have been had you not posted it online). This includes me, I’m just as guilty!

Raising two puppies at once is something I would never do. Why? Same reason I prayed during each of my pregnancies that I wasn’t having multiples. Sure, women out there can pull it off with ease, but some lose their minds and have a mental break down. I’d be the mental breakdown parent. My children’s ages are staggered, as are my dogs. Because I don’t want to handle two at once. It’s literally twice the work!

I didn’t neuter Crios because he wasn’t mature enough to be affected by Lyka’s cycles. Had he been uncontrollable and breaking doors to get to her, you can bet your butt I would have had him neutered rather than chance an unwanted litter. No matter his age. That was a chance I gambled on when I took him in. If he reacts to Seiran’s cycles like a maniac, chop chop goes the goods. Again, because I don’t want an accidental litter, and he has two years of growth and maturity compared to Seiran. Another reason I staggered their ages.

Crates are crates are crates. People love them, hate them, or just don’t care about them. Regardless of your opinion on them, there will be a time in your dogs life that one will be necessary. You say it will never happen, but you can’t predict the future. Do you think I knew Seiran would break her jaw at 9 weeks and need to be crated over night at the vets office? Nope. But it happened, and she was already used to the crate, so it wasn’t another stressor put on top of everything else she was going through. Lyka isn’t crated at all, but she’s been crate trained. There have been times when I have had to crate her (surgery) and she was fine. She also doesn’t use her crate when she isn’t asked to go in. Crios and Seiran both voluntarily go into their open crates to nap. It’s an added security measure in the event that they need to be crated quickly. Whether due to injury, flooding, evacuation, fire, etc. If you don’t mind putting extra stress on your dog by pushing them into an unknown crate during an emergency, that’s your right.

Dogs are like children when it comes to what’s right and what’s wrong. Every parent has their own way of doing things, and thinks it’s the best way of doing it. I learned long ago “not my circus, not my monkeys.” I seem to lose sight of that on the forum sometimes. And that’s when I know it’s time to take a break and live in my real life. Enjoy what my dogs can do, and not worry about what they can’t do. Not worry about this or that persons dog issues. Not worry if my dog is big enough, small enough, trained enough, worked enough. Just disengage and enjoy my brood that won’t be here forever.
 

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What a disaster. Poor girl.

This is why we advise against two puppies.
This is why we promote crate training
This is why we advise separate training and handling for multi dog households.

I personally find it sad that a young, growing dog was spayed simply for convenience. That said, you do you and I sincerely wish you and the dogs the best.

I hope that your post serves as a caution for others. I would only add that barrier training is something else that gets ignored. With the exception of Bud, no dog raised in my house will cross a barrier of any kind. I can keep Shadow in a room with a carboard box. The fence around my front yard was hip height. I once did a demo where I stopped all 16 of my then dogs, mid game, with a 2x4 across a doorway.
Agree with all except the spaying part. I am glad OP spayed their dog. Keeping dogs intact into adulthood only makes sense if you have the type of dogs, life, management and setup to do it safely. These two dogs would have had a litter on her first heat, which to me is much worse than her getting an early spay.
 

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Agree with all except the spaying part. I am glad OP spayed their dog. Keeping dogs intact into adulthood only makes sense if you have the type of dogs, life, management and setup to do it safely. These two dogs would have had a litter on her first heat, which to me is much worse than her getting an early spay.
Oh I totally agree with spaying in this case, I just find it sad.

And just to be clear, I HAVE raised pups and young dogs together and unless you are dedicated to separating them they end up bonded to each other, not their owners and then you are just a zookeeper.
 

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I thought the point of this forum was to share the experiences you have with your dogs and learn from others. That is what I was trying to do...
I see a lot of posts on here about peoples personal life's… I see people attack each other for doing something they disagree with.

We should be here to support, encourage and educate but respectfully and when you actually understand and have the knowledge to do so.

The point of my post was to share that I learned how important getting your dogs secure in crates is. We never used crates and with the spay we learned how important it is. Choncheese took to the crate immediately, she has no issues with the crate and is recovery well from the spay. I understand everyone has different opinions on spaying but she is not a papered pedigree dog and we did not want to breed her, so we took steps to make sure she never has puppies. This was after a very long battle of research and me not wanting to alter my dog... but in the end we did what is best for our dogs and our family.

This post was also not trying to show we are having a hard time with our 2 puppies. We love our 2 puppies and we are not having any issues with them, we wouldn't have it any other way. If I had to do it over again I would it the same way and get them both at the time and age we got them They are amazing together and separated. The spay has just brought out another side of our female which has changed our male a bit because she has become more needy and it brought out his "take care of the pack" mentality when he would hear her crying. She was never this way before and is settling back in to her normal independent behavior now which we are very happy to see.
 

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Agree with all except the spaying part. I am glad OP spayed their dog. Keeping dogs intact into adulthood only makes sense if you have the type of dogs, life, management and setup to do it safely. These two dogs would have had a litter on her first heat, which to me is much worse than her getting an early spay.
I think if one had to be early altered it would've been the male for me as the female has an inverted vulva. They didn't want to neuter the male because the husband feels bad for him. The female on the other hand has legitimate reasons that she shouldn't be spayed early(that are often fixed with actually going into heat not just getting older...). I just hope that she doesn't suffer any lifelong issues from this. It'll be unfortunate for her and the owners.

As for OP sorry that this has been a rough time but definitely sounds like a good learning experience. You've learned more about your dogs and more about crates and such. It's a good post and maybe it'll make people think if they happen to read it.
 

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I thought the point of this forum was to share the experiences you have with your dogs and learn from others. That is what I was trying to do...
I see a lot of posts on here about peoples personal life's… I see people attack each other for doing something they disagree with.

We should be here to support, encourage and educate but respectfully and when you actually understand and have the knowledge to do so.

The point of my post was to share that I learned how important getting your dogs secure in crates is. We never used crates and with the spay we learned how important it is. Choncheese took to the crate immediately, she has no issues with the crate and is recovery well from the spay. I understand everyone has different opinions on spaying but she is not a papered pedigree dog and we did not want to breed her, so we took steps to make sure she never has puppies. This was after a very long battle of research and me not wanting to alter my dog... but in the end we did what is best for our dogs and our family.

This post was also not trying to show we are having a hard time with our 2 puppies. We love our 2 puppies and we are not having any issues with them, we wouldn't have it any other way. If I had to do it over again I would it the same way and get them both at the time and age we got them They are amazing together and separated. The spay has just brought out another side of our female which has changed our male a bit because she has become more needy and it brought out his "take care of the pack" mentality when he would hear her crying. She was never this way before and is settling back in to her normal independent behavior now which we are very happy to see.
You are correct, that is what this forum was created for. Unfortunately, when you take a broad spectrum of people with wildly different views, it leads to attacks, or someone pushing what they are passionate about onto others.

As for sharing things from your personal life, guilty as charged. However, the forum does provide a category that is for non dog related posts. Or sometimes personal lives come in to play with what is going on with your dog.

If I were in your situation, I would have spayed as well. But I also wouldn’t have chosen to raise two pups at once. For my own personal reasons. But like I said, not my circus, not my monkeys. More power to you for being able to handle two at once. I can’t, not without stressing out and breaking down.

I love that you are sharing your experience with the forum, to show the importance of crate training, even if you are not going to use it on a daily basis. I know on previous threads you have stated your stance on not needing the use of crates. It’s great to see that real life experience can change your opinion, and that you can share that with others.

Don’t feel beaten up OP. You did what was right for your situation, and I applaud your decision to spay rather than risk an accidental litter. We have enough dogs in shelters as it is, and many of those dogs weren’t accidental litters. Would it be better health wise to wait, maybe, maybe not. But in your case, I completely agree that the risks of an earlier spay is far better than the risks of an accidental litter.
 

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I thought the point of this forum was to share the experiences you have with your dogs and learn from others. That is what I was trying to do...
I see a lot of posts on here about peoples personal life's… I see people attack each other for doing something they disagree with.

We should be here to support, encourage and educate but respectfully and when you actually understand and have the knowledge to do so.

The point of my post was to share that I learned how important getting your dogs secure in crates is. We never used crates and with the spay we learned how important it is. Choncheese took to the crate immediately, she has no issues with the crate and is recovery well from the spay. I understand everyone has different opinions on spaying but she is not a papered pedigree dog and we did not want to breed her, so we took steps to make sure she never has puppies. This was after a very long battle of research and me not wanting to alter my dog... but in the end we did what is best for our dogs and our family.

This post was also not trying to show we are having a hard time with our 2 puppies. We love our 2 puppies and we are not having any issues with them, we wouldn't have it any other way. If I had to do it over again I would it the same way and get them both at the time and age we got them They are amazing together and separated. The spay has just brought out another side of our female which has changed our male a bit because she has become more needy and it brought out his "take care of the pack" mentality when he would hear her crying. She was never this way before and is settling back in to her normal independent behavior now which we are very happy to see.
I'm not attacking you. I agree that you made the best decision. I am the one who always says if you have doubts about your ability to prevent pups, get it done. I am more disturbed that as a society we have lost the ability to manage our lives, and the creatures in it.

I'm also pointing out that your girl put herself in serious jeopardy trying to get away to be with your other dog at a time when you needed her with you, focused on you, for safety reasons.

I am sincerely happy that you love your dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I'm not attacking you. I agree that you made the best decision. I am the one who always says if you have doubts about your ability to prevent pups, get it done. I am more disturbed that as a society we have lost the ability to manage our lives, and the creatures in it.

I'm also pointing out that your girl put herself in serious jeopardy trying to get away to be with your other dog at a time when you needed her with you, focused on you, for safety reasons.

I am sincerely happy that you love your dogs.

Sorry, my comment was not directed at you. It was more of a general statement....

I was only trying to say that my post was about showing the pro's of crating by outlining the craziness I went through with my dogs spay but the focus was immediately on "How could I spay my dog" and "Having 2 puppies at the same time"
 

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She is beautiful. Is she long-coated?
 
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She is beautiful. Is she long-coated?
Yes, she is long haired. Its hard to tell in these pictures because we have the Suitical on her but her coat has so many colors in it and its super dense and soft. Even when you look under the black you can see tan, greys and silvers, we feel very lucky to have found her. Everyone who see's her is blown away and says she looks like a bear. I have to say personally I had never seen a long haired GSD so I had no clue the coat existed.

The problem we have is she is our water baby, she could literally sit in the pool all day! So she is constantly wet and musky smelling. I just groom her daily and make sure she has time to fully dry out, lol.
 
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