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Discussion Starter #1
I am going to watch that Webinar on Pain Management next week (I hope) and am wondering if they will address this.

Anyway, Kramer is fused way up the spine (about 2/3 I would guess), but yesterday the vet pulled his tail up and he seemed a little looser after that (plus he got his Adequan shot) and I was wondering-if chiropractic would be safe for him. Nina, too-hers is less but she has arthritis in the hip and knee. I know my own chiro is very careful with certain things and will refuse some conditions...but I have no idea if this is something that another chiro would do.
 

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Am interested in this. Since WDJ wrote up chiropractic care this month, I'm thinking Zamboni might benefit from it. I have the name of someone who is supposed to be "The Best..." But still, I worry...
 

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i have been apprehensive on chiro for some issues. although i think it makes a huge difference on who you take them to for the adjustments, preferably a vet that has a degree in chiro, and not a certificate on a few weekend seminars. because spondylosis also involves hidden issues like nerves, etc. you really don't know the extent of the problem. so, yes, sometimes chiro can definitely help, somtimes with disc issues it can make things worse. so, its a crap shoot like anything else at this stage of the game. the only way you'd know for sure how and what to treat, you would have to have a mylagram to see what everything is doing first. any who is going to put a senior through that. i think acupuncture is very effective on spondulosis or any spinal problem that involves impingements from fusing because it opens up the pathways.

you don't know till ya try, and with the seniors the alterntives are the best resources we have,.


debbie
 

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I definitely agree on going to someone (vet or chiro) that has gone through the AVCA training, and not the weekend seminar types. I want someone that knows what they are doing, and that's what the AVCA training does -- it's very extensive.

I was terrified when I first took Indy about 7 years ago. But I had run out of options for her. And it has been a consistent life saver. I was fortunate because it was a vet that knew Indy well, and knew the chiro, and knew that they would be a good mix. I trust our K9 chiro completely. I know that whatever the situation, she would use the right judgement on how to treat, or whether to treat at all. I wish there was some guarantee that they all were like that.

My 83 y.o. mom has severe spondylosis and the chiro helps her tremendously. If the spine is impinging on a nerve, there's really not much, outside of chiropractic care, that can help relieve that (including most drugs). Most importantly, for Mom, is that it helps prevent things from getting worse.

There are several reasons to see a chiro. One is the obvious "out of adjustment" and to realign the vertebrae. However, they also mobilize the joints by gentle manipulation; this is big for Max, who is often not "out", but his spine gets jammed up and doesn't move. Another important reason to see a chiro is that although sometimes they can't "fix" anything, they can help maintain whatever mobility is left so that things don't get worse. When joints stop moving, they start calcifying and further fusion (and thus nerve damage) takes place. "In theory", regular chiro care can help prevent this from happening.


As with anything, as debbie knows from experience, even the best intentions can go wrong. I've never had it happen with my dogs, but it is always a possibility when *anyone* works on your dog.
 

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i do agree with Lisa, in that if the spine is out of line, an adjustment can help the spinal area run smoother and function better.
as long as its done properly.

debbie
 

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Chiropractic will help both human and animal both. Have been using it on my animals for the last 7 years and on myself for the last 5 years. Besides getting a shepherd it was the next best decision in my life !
 

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No, not the same benefits. Sometimes you can one or the other, but the chiro will help prevent or slow increased degradation or fusion much more efficiently.

Max gets both and they work well together. He gets adjusted more frequently than needled. Indy gets the chiro only, but I do her bodywork at home -- she can't tolerate needles.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
MONTHS later...

I found a vet (that Kramer's vet told me about) that does both acupuncture and chiropractic and is on both websites as being certified. I think. It's about 40 minutes away, so I am thinking I could only take Kramer, and Nina would have to go another time because both don't really fit well in the back seat together and that's a long ride for one to ride in the front. (the other dogs can fit-but these two can't bend and flex like the others)

I am still really concerned about "breaking" him. I saw that Zamboni was snap crackle and popped-very neat! I am going to ask the vet about this tomorrow at Kramer's adequan appt. If I do go, maybe I'll take his x-rays with him so I feel better. And I feel like if I am not comfortable with the chiro adjustment I can just skip to acupuncture.

I've noticed Kramer's gotten kind of stuck in a stand as his front legs moved forward (well, I guess he moved them forward) and his hind legs kind of didn't move as far, and he looked like a Morgan Horse in a "stacked" position. Which would be great if he were a Morgan Horse...but he's not.


So I'd like to make sure his front legs work well and try to get everything a little looser and better for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Talked to his vet today and then called a couple of places for acupuncture only. One was definitely less money (by like half), the vet is certified and it's more of a country practice, which is better for Kramer-he gets so nervous, so a low key, not as vet smelly place could help. And they said we try it for 3-5 and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Treatments were spaced out a little more, too-not weekly (I think every other?), which helps with gas/time.

I figure if we can just maintain what we have and get a little improvement in terms of being looser, I'd be happy. So we go next Tuesday at 2 with his x-rays and they are faxing his records from the last two years (I thought-how many pages are there in a 15 yo dog's records-it would be like sending them John McCain's
)
 

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I've only tried accupuncture three times on the Hooligns. The first two dogs were Niki and JR. I can't recall how many appointments each of these two boys had, it was few, but it didn't seem to work with either of them. Ringer's Bowen Therapist used the electrical stimulation accupuncture on him once and I noticed a positive change in him, BUT he didn't like it and the next time she tried it he misbehaved so badly she had to stop the procedure (he kept messing the electrical wires up).
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah-I have used chiropractic for me, but his spine is like one big lump-I just cannot get over the fear of breaking him. This guy COULD do it-he's also registered (or whatever) as a chiropractor vet, too, but...gah! If there's something he can do in an area that is not so vulnerable, maybe. So it's definitely one of those things that I would do, but have an aversion to.

Bruno had acupuncture for stress/behavioral reasons and it worked really well for him. He also was Reiki'd once and fell over-so Bruno is an Eastern kind of guy.


Actually, I am going to have Kramer Reiki'd again-we do it remotely and it seems to help (we share a session).

Today after his Adequan shot he ran around a bit chasing everyone, but was a little wobbly tonight when he got up for some water. Of course, he may have a flask hidden somewhere...


Ringer...awww...he was bad...so sweet.
 

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Jean, I do understand your concern.

Adjusting a dog is different than the way most humans get adjusted. They are gentle nudges, and not the violent movements that humans are subjected to sometimes. I know that in the places where Max gets "stuck", the chiro gently mobilizes. I don't know if that makes you feel any better?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Really? Hmmm...I might consider it. I know I have gotten wrenched around like a ragdoll (but love that POP!). I'll see how comfortable I feel with this vet, too, I just have this terribly irrational fear about breaking Kramer. This vet does both chiropractic and acupuncture.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Sooooo...a little story-I left on time (which is good for me) with my directions and a shortcut. When I got to the end of my shortcut, there was a road closed sign-my shortcut was a secondary road and no warning! ACK! Lost 15 minutes backtracking-and could not figure out where the detour was taking me! Finally got to the part where Mapquest picked up and as I am driving these roads notice that they are not marked, and when they are, they do not match mapquest. So after many wrong turns and Kramer thinking he might need to puke (we stopped-he got out and wandered a bit) we showed up 30 minutes late, but the tech and vet were very nice about it. Thankfully! Kind of funny now...then I was cursing mapquest, the DOT, and all their future generations...

Anyway, the tech was great. He explained what was going to happen and talked to me about the chiropractic device that the vet used. It was like a little hole punch kind of thing (not really-but it kind of made that noise) like a stamp type of thing. I decided to go along with it because it was so mild-and because he explained where Kramer's spine is fused and how his neck was in a spasm of some sort (?). So he stamped that thing (on his thumb, on Kramer) all up and down and all over, then used these spiked (nubbed?) magnetic balls all over him. Kramer then proceeded to go under the bench to get a treat that had fallen on the floor.
So that little bit seemed to help.

Then he put the needles in-all over-Kramer scraped the one on his head off on my knee. Goof! The vet said he's a little more active than most 15 year olds...which of course made my day (and Kramer's). Of course Kramer did not stand still, did not act relaxed, or anything I was expecting to see. But that was okay. THEN, the vet pulls out these boxes-he did that light therapy stuff (?) with him-red light. Very neat-whatever it was! Psychedelic at the very least. The vet was great. He asked Kramer (his bloat x-ray was with the others that we brought from the vet) how are you still alive? And Kramer just smiled.

So we finished up. I told him that Kramer jumps in the car on his own still and he asked that he not do that so I used Nina's harness on him (I brought it in case he broke Kramer). He also told me to have Kramer pee, that he would have to, and I thought
whatever, but yes, Kramer did pee, which is unusual in strange places.

He's to be quiet for 24 hours. We go back next week. He's sleeping now.

He was able to sit in the car instead of stand (or lay down-but he can't lay down and backseat drive at the same time-so he stands) on the ride home which was an immediate improvement. He would have fallen asleep I think, but again, he has to drive, dammit!

I just want his legs not to slip, get a little looseness and flexibility back if possible, and allow him to lay down more easily. Not marathons! Just maintain what we have with a little extra.

Already, he was able to pick a treat up off the floor without working to get it-that was huge-his neck is longer!

Meanwhile, I am all tensed up still from driving for about 2.5 hours
where's my acupuncture?!?!
 

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Did you take your RR?

That's great, Jean! Where did you take him? I will have to ask if I can find chiropractic around here.

The homeopath that I used to go to did a little chiro but I wonder if there is anyone specializing it around here.

As for your driving adventures--I tensed up just reading about it. That's just the sort of thing that happens to me every time I take these animals to some special vet.
 

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Jean, do you think these treatments would work on a senior GSD that has to be muzzled at the vet?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I think it would depend on the vet doing the stuff maybe? I would guess that most doctors doing these types of things are good at managing behavior and working around nervous dogs? That's what I was thinking. Kramer was moving around and didn't snap at the vet-which he will if he feels he's being pushed. The chiropractic part went so quickly.

I actually asked the receptionist this when I called-how do they deal with fearful/nervous dogs and aggression and they were very blase about it...oh, we get that all the time, they're all like that, we don't really even think about it.

Oh-he's pretty perky this morning. Maybe a little sore, but he wanted to go out in the back with the other dogs to show off a little, I think. He ran to the front door to go potty that way (less steps and no running as he's on leash). So the 24 hours of restriction is working.
 
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