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While I understand Carmen's breeding program is considered legendary by many. And, that many members here have or have had products of her breeding's with great satisfaction in the dogs. And, in the past, when she was active here I always found her advise and wisdom to be profoundly helpful to me. Even as a the lowly pet owner of a genetic misfit of a GSD. The woman knows her stuff without question.
While I whole heartedly agree that a good breeder with a mindful breeding program doesn't need to title their dogs I understand where @K9WolfAlpha is coming from. If I wanted to be bothered with taking the time I'm confident that a quick search in the "finding a breeder" forum would yield me hundreds if not thousands of posts/comments that state exactly what K9wolfalpha questioned in their original post. That is... that many, many members here, including several that have commented in this thread have on numerous occasions told those looking for advise on how to tell a good breeder from a bad one was that they health tested and "TITLED" their dogs. That without titles to prove the lines worth one wouldn't know what they were getting. That in Germany, the origin of the breed, it is required to title to prove breed worthiness and breed legitimately for good reason. The whole idea of the titling process was to do just that...Prove workability and breed worthiness.
It has been told in rote on this forum for years that good reputable breeders health check and "title" their dogs and if they don't it would be a red flag.
So, while I don't think it was fair to call out Carmen and the Carmspack lines specifically, I do understand the OP's thought process.
Just my perspective...
 

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I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.

When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.

Perspective is important. While I agree that the average forum member looking for a sport dog or active pet would do well by seeking out breeders that title their dogs, someone looking for a working dog will have different or rather additional criteria in mind when selecting a breeder.

So I understand, and typically agree with, the dead horse argument for titled parents. I used my own criteria when selecting a breeder. I feel I have the knowledge to do so. The perfect dog for me is not the perfect dog for the first time owner looking for a puppy. Valor in a novice home would be a train wreck with teeth.

Here is a recent example. A puppy from a well respected breeder (who titles their dogs, runs a club where many of their dogs train, stays in touch with her dogs) went to an active home. They did everything right. Plenty of training, exercise, right food etc... They could never really get a handle on the dog. It was reactive, had some health issues due to stress and such. The dog was returned to the breeder as a young adult. It immediately turned around. No issues. Good with other dogs and kids. Ready to work or chill. All around nice dog. It recently went to a retired military handler and is a great fit for his family.

So how do you give advice on a breeder? You go with standard criteria. You also suggest that the prospective buyer go to a club so they can get a handle on what GSDs are like, and to learn a little about what they may prefer in a dog. Get hands on with the parents and other dogs that the breeder has produced etc.
 

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I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.

When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.

Perspective is important. While I agree that the average forum member looking for a sport dog or active pet would do well by seeking out breeders that title their dogs, someone looking for a working dog will have different or rather additional criteria in mind when selecting a breeder.

So I understand, and typically agree with, the dead horse argument for titled parents. I used my own criteria when selecting a breeder. I feel I have the knowledge to do so. The perfect dog for me is not the perfect dog for the first time owner looking for a puppy. Valor in a novice home would be a train wreck with teeth.

Here is a recent example. A puppy from a well respected breeder (who titles their dogs, runs a club where many of their dogs train, stays in touch with her dogs) went to an active home. They did everything right. Plenty of training, exercise, right food etc... They could never really get a handle on the dog. It was reactive, had some health issues due to stress and such. The dog was returned to the breeder as a young adult. It immediately turned around. No issues. Good with other dogs and kids. Ready to work or chill. All around nice dog. It recently went to a retired military handler and is a great fit for his family.

So how do you give advice on a breeder? You go with standard criteria. You also suggest that the prospective buyer go to a club so they can get a handle on what GSDs are like, and to learn a little about what they may prefer in a dog. Get hands on with the parents and other dogs that the breeder has produced etc.
GSD are not for everyone.
Not even for many that already have them.
 

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While I understand Carmen's breeding program is considered legendary by many. And, that many members here have or have had products of her breeding's with great satisfaction in the dogs. And, in the past, when she was active here I always found her advise and wisdom to be profoundly helpful to me. Even as a the lowly pet owner of a genetic misfit of a GSD. The woman knows her stuff without question.
While I whole heartedly agree that a good breeder with a mindful breeding program doesn't need to title their dogs I understand where @K9WolfAlpha is coming from. If I wanted to be bothered with taking the time I'm confident that a quick search in the "finding a breeder" forum would yield me hundreds if not thousands of posts/comments that state exactly what K9wolfalpha questioned in their original post. That is... that many, many members here, including several that have commented in this thread have on numerous occasions told those looking for advise on how to tell a good breeder from a bad one was that they health tested and "TITLED" their dogs. That without titles to prove the lines worth one wouldn't know what they were getting. That in Germany, the origin of the breed, it is required to title to prove breed worthiness and breed legitimately for good reason. The whole idea of the titling process was to do just that...Prove workability and breed worthiness.
It has been told in rote on this forum for years that good reputable breeders health check and "title" their dogs and if they don't it would be a red flag.
So, while I don't think it was fair to call out Carmen and the Carmspack lines specifically, I do understand the OP's thought process.
Just my perspective...
I think this general topic has been beat beat to death a few times in threads past, I believe I understand the thought process and mostly agree with what is said here. I would say titles are a good thing to see when looking for a breeder, hoping that the breeder is active with their dogs and has a good understanding of their breeding stock and how it compares to others, the breed standard, etc... However it is only a tiny snapshot of the whole picture and if anyone is under the illusion that an igp title universally means they are getting a top quality dog -- I predict pain
 

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Springbrz, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Thanks for expressing it so well.
 
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I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.

When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.

Perspective is important. While I agree that the average forum member looking for a sport dog or active pet would do well by seeking out breeders that title their dogs, someone looking for a working dog will have different or rather additional criteria in mind when selecting a breeder.

So I understand, and typically agree with, the dead horse argument for titled parents. I used my own criteria when selecting a breeder. I feel I have the knowledge to do so. The perfect dog for me is not the perfect dog for the first time owner looking for a puppy. Valor in a novice home would be a train wreck with teeth.

Here is a recent example. A puppy from a well respected breeder (who titles their dogs, runs a club where many of their dogs train, stays in touch with her dogs) went to an active home. They did everything right. Plenty of training, exercise, right food etc... They could never really get a handle on the dog. It was reactive, had some health issues due to stress and such. The dog was returned to the breeder as a young adult. It immediately turned around. No issues. Good with other dogs and kids. Ready to work or chill. All around nice dog. It recently went to a retired military handler and is a great fit for his family.

So how do you give advice on a breeder? You go with standard criteria. You also suggest that the prospective buyer go to a club so they can get a handle on what GSDs are like, and to learn a little about what they may prefer in a dog. Get hands on with the parents and other dogs that the breeder has produced etc.
My thoughts exactly -- tried to explain this in a pm to someone looking into local GSD breeders recently. Pretty sure I lost them in the process. Clearly and succinctly said--- an additonal important layer that is often overlooked in the breeder selection process... Thanks for articulating this so well. Also please keep updating us on Valor's progress! =)
 
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I go even further, dogs are not for everyone. Not even many that have them. 😳
The thing is that many people who think they would never consider a Dobe, a Rottie, a Pit or Mastiff don't hesitate to buy a "beautiful GSD I always wanted" without knowing how challenging they can be in the wrong hands
 

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Never thought of that as I was surprised at how many people are afraid of them. We live and travel full time in an RV so every weekend the campgrounds are full of dogs that have never seen any real training and are out of control with owners be pulled along or completely oblivious to bad behavior.

pet peeve is constant barking with owner right there doing nothing to correct the dog.
 

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Never thought of that as I was surprised at how many people are afraid of them. We live and travel full time in an RV so every weekend the campgrounds are full of dogs that have never seen any real training and are out of control with owners be pulled along or completely oblivious to bad behavior.

pet peeve is constant barking with owner right there doing nothing to correct the dog.
We camp a lot as well and see the same things. State parks are better as there is more space, but it's still a hassle sometimes.
 
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I think it depends want you want in a dog specifically and depending what that is you look for breeders who do things with their dogs with goals that are aligned. Balance is important and just because a breeder does a specific interest with there dog it’s dependent on the breeder as to other goals which often is more then one goal. Every pup in every litter are different so along with that it’s important to have a breeder who is honest and truthful and it’s still a risk if the pup is to turn out as expected.

I grew up as a kid the 80’s my friends gsd saved our butts as kids often I had a dog gsd mix who I loved dearly (and why I am so I treated in the animal world) but fled when confronted with major conflict dealing with whackos on the streets as a kid in the 80’s (the 80’s were great growing up but there were so many times I can say how lucky I am to be here ) A dog with strong protective instincts will always be in my home -its a must.

When I was getting my next gsd Max, I wanted a dog with healthy drive but some less degrees of seriousness not a lot but a few notches less.( I had a excellent gsd but I did not have him as a pup and did acquire the skills in training a dog like that but did not realize until much later it was all his genetics that made him so well behaved)
We looked into protection trained shepherds at the time and they were incredibly expensive. As with my training level and having young kids and a tiny dog -I did not want to give myself and serious repercussions for training mistakes as I do like to spoil at times if given something to much to handle. I also emailed quite a few breeders as my concerns with chihuahuas kids never answered back. I did not have specific goals but the wants were a dog I can do scent work with , protective instincts and social family wise so my kids can enjoy him.

I did get a pup from a showline breeder (asl)who had police use her dogs as cadaver dogs. That impressed me the most.

When picking up Max as a pup he was reluctant to leave his shihtzu friend that he made. His dam and litter of pups gated off in the next room watching in silence of the transaction. The breeder said two other people came to pick up their pups prior to me and I can tell Max new exactly what was going on. He cried all the way home in the car but bounced around the house as I put him down in the ground even after being greeted by our very not accepting at the moment chihauhua. Chasing leaves in the yard playing with my son and standing right next me (when the back kitchen for was open) when all the trees where blowing in really strong winds. At 8 weeks on his first day home is saw alot of what he is today.

Max would give his all to protect me if there were any reason to I would put my life on that one. He is my heart dog. My skills went up levels. He is great with all friends new & old family that come over. He is is quite a character and keeps us laughing constantly. My nephew 6 jumped off the couch during a crazed charoke sleep over and landed right in Max and he did not blink. Max is a dog that is in the middle of all the craziness.

The third gsd we figure to try wgsl. Luna is sweet as can be. She did not bat an eye bringing her home and acted as she lived here from day one. She herself has protection instincts but easy going (less suspicion) and a little softer for the kids to take on walks. She will often go with my daughter on store runs and walks in the neighborhood with my son. She is exactly what I wanted in having a second gsd. She is the mother hen of all the little kids that come here. Luna’s breeder who has showlines, sport lines dogs that do go off to sar and therapy work.

I commend all great breeders for making people incredibly happy with solid dogs.
 
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