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So much gets said it’s tough to keep up on what I would like to insert.

This type of statement bothers me.

“For one thing these correction collars are for training, not management. It is a difference. If you like a prong collar because it makes walking the dog more pleasurable because he isn’t pulling the entire time, that’s up to you; but if that prong fails (and they do), and you can’t chase the dog down and grab it and stop it before it bites someone or gets run over by a car (given you aren’t 100% reliable on recall, of course), then you are a liability to the breed and shouldn’t be owning the dog”

I love this -

“I think you can get 100% reliability that the dog will not do anything you do not expect.”

Knowing that above is so important. I can’t seem to win with Apex when it comes to deer and dogs.

Expand....

“Someone much smarter than me told me years ago that the best behaved, best trained dog in the world is going to disobey at some point. And it will be at the worst possible moment.
I keep that in the back of my mind always.” - THIS! I don’t have nearly the best-behaved dog.

Apex can win; he knows it. I wish I could find the direct quotes by Steve Strom.

My pet dog is a backyard breed GSD. My first dog has been a journey of ups and downs. Not easy, not easy at all. I struggle with the most basic things.

I’ve seen posts where people say, “who knew a leash was so complicated!” Insert sarcasm

Steve said; basically, you don’t want to fight with these dogs. I fought Apex for two years. It’s taken me an additional two years to figure out how to stop fighting him mostly. He is five now.

I’ve spent the last two years building with Apex. I don’t take him anywhere where I risk a reaction. If he reacts, I cannot control him. I can walk him on a leash and off-leash in a beautiful relaxed heel on a level ONE distraction LOL for a long way too. He chooses to. Okay, maybe slightly more than a level 1, but he will fail me when it matters. I don’t blame him; I always blame myself.

Steve also said in conjunction generally, when it’s the dog’s idea, it’s solid for life. I have spent two years trying to figure this out. Dog obeys because he wants to. He is clear.

I tried tools. While tools gave results, it was too frequent and nagging. I can suppress the dog into not reacting at very low levels. Take the collar off, and the dog will react and disobey. During a reaction or chase, can’t do anything.

No corrections for two years. With the maturity and the work, we put in. I went to see a trainer. I want to introduce distractions so I can finally proof behaviors systemically. If corrections are involved, I am okay with it; I need guidance and distractions.

I say do you think the dog understands? Yes, he is a nice dog. Will I ever be able to trust him? Not if you can’t correct the dog. – ( inner thoughts THIS STINKS)

She tells me if he is off-leash has to have an E-collar on or be on leash with a prong. FOREVER

I am not committed entirely to this belief…..I don’t want to be
So if this is the case, then I have no business owning a dog? Gut punched
Maybe it’s true took five years just to get him to loose leash walk. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
 

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I say do you think the dog understands? Yes, he is a nice dog. Will I ever be able to trust him? Not if you can’t correct the dog. – ( inner thoughts THIS STINKS)

She tells me if he is off-leash has to have an E-collar on or be on leash with a prong. FOREVER

I am not committed entirely to this belief…..I don’t want to be

So if this is the case, then I have no business owning a dog? Gut punched
The point I was making is that there are many other options to achieve the same thing! You don't need a prong collar because you can accomplish the same thing with a choke chain or a slip lead or a martingale or many other tools.

What you need is control. What you choose to use has been a prong collar, and that's fine. If it were me, I'd look for a different trainer though.
 

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So much gets said it’s tough to keep up on what I would like to insert.

This type of statement bothers me.



“For one thing these correction collars are for training, not management. It is a difference. If you like a prong collar because it makes walking the dog more pleasurable because he isn’t pulling the entire time, that’s up to you; but if that prong fails (and they do), and you can’t chase the dog down and grab it and stop it before it bites someone or gets run over by a car (given you aren’t 100% reliable on recall, of course), then you are a liability to the breed and shouldn’t be owning the dog”





I love this -

“I think you can get 100% reliability that the dog will not do anything you do not expect.”

Knowing that above is so important. I can’t seem to win with Apex when it comes to deer and dogs.

Expand....

“Someone much smarter than me told me years ago that the best behaved, best trained dog in the world is going to disobey at some point. And it will be at the worst possible moment.
I keep that in the back of my mind always.” - THIS! I don’t have nearly the best-behaved dog.

Apex can win; he knows it. I wish I could find the direct quotes by Steve Strom.

My pet dog is a backyard breed GSD. My first dog has been a journey of ups and downs. Not easy, not easy at all. I struggle with the most basic things.

I’ve seen posts where people say, “who knew a leash was so complicated!” Insert sarcasm


Steve said; basically, you don’t want to fight with these dogs. I fought Apex for two years. It’s taken me an additional two years to figure out how to stop fighting him mostly. He is five now.


I’ve spent the last two years building with Apex. I don’t take him anywhere where I risk a reaction. If he reacts, I cannot control him. I can walk him on a leash and off-leash in a beautiful relaxed heel on a level ONE distraction LOL for a long way too. He chooses to. Okay, maybe slightly more than a level 1, but he will fail me when it matters. I don’t blame him; I always blame myself.


Steve also said in conjunction generally, when it’s the dog’s idea, it’s solid for life. I have spent two years trying to figure this out. Dog obeys because he wants to. He is clear.





I tried tools. While tools gave results, it was too frequent and nagging. I can suppress the dog into not reacting at very low levels. Take the collar off, and the dog will react and disobey. During a reaction or chase, can’t do anything.

No corrections for two years. With the maturity and the work, we put in. I went to see a trainer. I want to introduce distractions so I can finally proof behaviors systemically. If corrections are involved, I am okay with it; I need guidance and distractions.



I say do you think the dog understands? Yes, he is a nice dog. Will I ever be able to trust him? Not if you can’t correct the dog. – ( inner thoughts THIS STINKS)

She tells me if he is off-leash has to have an E-collar on or be on leash with a prong. FOREVER



I am not committed entirely to this belief…..I don’t want to be



So if this is the case, then I have no business owning a dog? Gut punched



Maybe it’s true took five years just to get him to loose leash walk. I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
Shadow is 11. For two years I tried to make her be a normal dog. I did all the right things, it got us nowhere. I had a stressed out dog who acted out and lashed out in frustration and terror. Then I spent a year or so doing nothing. We stopped walking and training and pushing. We played and hung out and cuddled and talked. I learned so much more about my dog then I had while fighting her. I learned to read her, I learned about her quirky language, I learned the essence of her. I stepped back and started working her on her terms. At 5 we introduced a prong to get us over that one last hurdle.
People comment all the time that she is such a good dog, so well behaved. If only they knew.
David talks a lot about buy in. Get the dog to WANT to do it. No matter what tool you use you will fail if the dog doesn't want it at least as much as you do.
 

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that control with out tools is what I strive for. Maybe not possible with this dog. I know I have a much better shot with my new dog.

I agree about the trainer. It's not my first. WIsh I could find one I like and can afford. It's unfortunately the best controlled environment I have right now. I won't be handing my leash over that is for sure.
 

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David talks a lot about buy in. Get the dog to WANT to do it. No matter what tool you use you will fail if the dog doesn't want it at least as much as you do.
Here's buy in. No correction tools were used in the making of this video.

Yes, he body checks me regularly. He also spins behind me and all sorts of fun, goofy stuff. I'm not sure that a dog could have much more fun doing simple OB.

This is our 5th outing of the day. More than 3 hours total out having fun.

 

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Here's buy in. No correction tools were used in the making of this video.

Yes, he body checks me regularly. He also spins behind me and all sorts of fun, goofy stuff. I'm not sure that a dog could have much more fun doing simple OB.

This is our 5th outing of the day. More than 3 hours total out having fun.

That’s a good looking dog. Very engaged and excited to be with you. You can see it’s not about the rewards or punishments, but the act of working with you.
 

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That’s a good looking dog. Very engaged and excited to be with you. You can see it’s not about the rewards or punishments, but the act of working with you.
So the idea of shutting a dog down with heavy handed training, I don't care what tools you use, really disgusts me. That's why it bothers me when people assume that dogs trained with "those tools" have less fun. Like we are robbing them of something.

This dog is capable of doing just about anything. He's also capable of complete anarchy and destruction.

There is a balance in dog training, particularly with dogs that like to fight and have the nerve strength to back it up. When you convince a dog that doing the right thing is their idea, it doesn't take a lot of compulsion to keep them in line.

I stand by my statement that it's takes proofing. The threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest.
 

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So the idea of shutting a dog down with heavy handed training, I don't care what tools you use, really disgusts me. That's why it bothers me when people assume that dogs trained with "those tools" have less fun. Like we are robbing them of something.

This dog is capable of doing just about anything. He's also capable of complete anarchy and destruction.

There is a balance in dog training, particularly with dogs that like to fight and have the nerve strength to back it up. When you convince a dog that doing the right thing is their idea, it doesn't take a lot of compulsion to keep them in line.

I stand by my statement that it's takes proofing. The threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest.
Hard to say it better than that.
 

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People comment all the time that she is such a good dog, so well behaved. If only they knew.
So true. That's also why dog passion can feel a bit "lonely" at times. You definitely need to have at least a few like-minded friends.
People can never guess how much effort you put in, and are easily fooled by a dog obeying even the most basic commands.
These shepherds easily make an impression out in public, because of this high drive they have. Most people don't realize that intensity reflects in all aspects of what they do though, not just obedience.
Back in his hard/dirty reactivity days, Buck could already look like a champ in the right setting. Then turn into a monster in a split second. :confused:
My Boxer mix is much less eye-catching in the way she obeys, but she's never been remotely as hard to train for "normal life".
Buck was already a young adult when I got him though, I wonder how it would have been to train him from puppyhood.
I used to be sure lack of experience in his first year was the reason he was so hard at the beginning. But at that training session I attended there were mostly shepherds, most of which had been bought as pups. And well, some of them were looked like a handful. 😅

It was quite fascinating how fast they responded handled by the guest trainer. Some of them got here looking like they wanted to kill any approaching person, and were playing tug with a stranger like 20 minutes later in the training enclosure.
 

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The way this guy (the trainer) used posture, facial expression and hand touch on these dogs was kind of mesmerizing. I swear I just stood there with my mouth dropped open for most of the 2 days I was there. lol
It's really easy as a trainer to swoop in and make your dog look good. The dog doesn't know the trainer and first impressions mean a lot. It hasn't had the experience of blowing the trainer off a hundred times of the effects of poor timing, inconsistencies and confusion that develops with many owners.

I'm not trying to talk this guy down at all. I'm just saying that an experienced trainer can typically make any dog look good in fairly short order.

New military/police handlers get so frustrated when they are struggling with their dog, so you take the leash to demonstrate and the dog behaves perfectly. They say the right words, which is what they think is important, but everything else is wrong. You are right about posture and such, but it's more than that. It's about how you feel and think, and how you project those things to the dog.
 

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It's really easy as a trainer to swoop in and make your dog look good. The dog doesn't know the trainer and first impressions mean a lot. It hasn't had the experience of blowing the trainer off a hundred times of the effects of poor timing, inconsistencies and confusion that develops with many owners.

I'm not trying to talk this guy down at all. I'm just saying that an experienced trainer can typically make any dog look good in fairly short order.

New military/police handlers get so frustrated when they are struggling with their dog, so you take the leash to demonstrate and the dog behaves perfectly. They say the right words, which is what they think is important, but everything else is wrong. You are right about posture and such, but it's more than that. It's about how you feel and think, and how you project those things to the dog.
Yes, totally.
It does help though. At least it makes people see their dog from a different perspective. Then training the owner, and adapting as an owner, takes effort. But knowing what's possible gives you motivation and you also learn a lot from just watching what the trainer does.
 

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Many trainers use their own dogs for demos. I used their own dogs for this so they could see what their dogs are capable of. My issue was that after that they don't follow up and go back to their own ways.
I am not sure if I missed the following in this ever expanding thread; how people here who claimed they got great results with a high prey drive dog but without the use of prongs or Ecollars.
 

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Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.

Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.
 

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Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.

Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.
In my opinion, it depends entirely on the trainer in question. If Michael Ellis wants to work my dog, have at it :)
 

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Right now I will never hand a leash to any trainer I see for the very first time in my life. The trainer has to earn my trust because I am the one responsible for the well being of my dog.

Disclaimer: my dogs are pets, not working dogs, competition dogs etc.
You hand the leash when you actually decide to work with a trainer/get help from them.
I'm not sure what you mean by "use their own dogs for demos" though.
Last time I went to my trainer was to assess my reactive dog and start work, and that's what we did. I didn't really need to see him handle his own dogs...
What I needed was for him to assess where my boy was, and give me an idea of what results I could expect to achieve with him in which amount of time, so I knew roughly what to expect if I proceeded to adopt him.
We did use his dogs for exposure though.
 
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