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Discussion Starter · #222 ·
I don’t agree. I think a lot of tools are used for managing dogs. Leashes, collars, crates, kennels, fences, walls, harnesses. All different things used to manage and control dogs. I think first and foremost, as long as you keep your dog safe, under control, and stop them from being a menace using techniques that are safe and fair to the dog then you are fine. There’s this I never use those so I’m better than you and you don’t deserve a dog mentality that comes from that statement. I don’t think everyone needs to live with their dog like me. I don’t think everyone needs to train their dogs like me. I don’t think doing it differently necessarily makes anyone better or worse than me. That is exactly what that statement comes off as.
I don't know how you can get this perspective from any statement I've ever made...

Use and need are entirely different things no?

I couldn't care less what you use or how you train, nor have I ever said anything else!

Most of the conversation in this thread has had very little to do with the topic of the thread, that's fine, it's been fun to read people's comments and perspectives.

But the thread itself has nothing to do with which tools or training method you choose to employ. But rather with the question of if there is an "ONLY" way to train x. Again, use versus need!
 

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Tim come on now!The thread started out with you mostly talking about tools you'd never want to use. It was totally unnecessary to mention them at all. Unless you wanted get some members stirred up. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #224 ·
Tim come on now!The thread started out with you mostly talking about tools you'd never want to use. It was totally unnecessary to mention them at all. Unless you wanted get some members stirred up. ;)
The assertion that 100% obedience can "ONLY" be obtained via an ecollar is the topic. I'm not sure how I could have approached the subject without mentioning it?

I apologize if people took that the wrong way, but honestly I never said I haven't used or never would use an e-collar. In fact I used them for years! What people choose to assume is up to them; but you must admit it has made for lively discussion lol!

I did say I choose not to use one on my current dog because she's already reliable enough without IMHO...
 

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I don't know how you can get this perspective from any statement I've ever made...

Use and need are entirely different things no?

I couldn't care less what you use or how you train, nor have I ever said anything else!

Most of the conversation in this thread has had very little to do with the topic of the thread, that's fine, it's been fun to read people's comments and perspectives.

But the thread itself has nothing to do with which tools or training method you choose to employ. But rather with the question of if there is an "ONLY" way to train x. Again, use versus need!
The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.
 

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Discussion Starter · #226 ·
The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.
I didn't say anything about a muzzle, you're reading that in! If you need a muzzle use a muzzle.

Back in the day we used a piece of string to accomplish the negative reinforcement that people now use an ecollar for. Use versus need! More than one way and all...
 

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The main problem I have is when people state things as fact. There is a huge difference between saying "in my experience" and saying "this is the way it is."

Example: resource guarding. I see all kinds of "factual, this is how you do it" posts that will get someone hurt with the wrong dog. Just because, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.
I can't decide if that's what they call a microaggression these days or a flat out shot :oops: :ROFLMAO:
 

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The statement that you shouldn’t have a dog if you need tools to manage it is exactly what I’m talking about. Look at the amount of people and dogs that need to use muzzles at the vet. Neither of my dogs have any issues in this scenario. It’s the equivalent of me saying if you need a muzzle you shouldn’t have that dog.
Piper never had a problem at the vets, she was always super calm.....until she wasn't. When she was 7 she bit a vet tech. 6 stitches later, guess who wears a muzzle to the vets office? What did someone say up further in the this thread? Never say never.
 

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Piper never had a problem at the vets, she was always super calm.....until she wasn't. When she was 7 she bit a vet tech. 6 stitches later, guess who wears a muzzle to the vets office? What did someone say up further in the this thread? Never say never.
I know. The point wasn’t about what my dogs do or don’t do.
 

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I can't decide if that's what they call a microaggression these days or a flat out shot :oops: :ROFLMAO:
I hear a Carly Simon song in the background :)

What in the name of Hades is a microaggression?
 
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Just because that person has never had that kind of dog, in the 6 dogs they have trained, that dog doesn't exist, so go ahead and stick you head down and eat out of the bowl with the dog. Everything will be fine. The dog will get used to it.
Sometimes the condescension and direct shots aren't even thinly veiled, you use that number in your examples a lot :ROFLMAO:

Edit: I get the Carly Simon reference!
 

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Sometimes the condescension and direct shots aren't even thinly veiled, you use that number in your examples a lot :ROFLMAO:

Edit: I get the Carly Simon reference!
If that number is of consequence, I am unaware. It just comes up in my head. I'll use 7 from now on if I remember.

I'm not actually singling you out. If it seems that way, it is unintentional and I apologize.
 

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If that number is of consequence, I am unaware. It just comes up in my head. I'll use 7 from now on if I remember.

I'm not actually singling you out. If it seems that way, it is unintentional and I apologize.
To be honest, the description you use did seem (to me) to be aimed at me, it's pretty true:LOL:
I don't really care if someone wants to take shots at me, I'm a big boy
 

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Discussion Starter · #237 ·
Let me just be clear and dispel most, hopefully, of the pent up anger people harbor. I don't and never had any aversion to any tool or their proper use! I have used ecollars successfully on many many occasions, and I never have said, or implied that the use of any collar is bad!

That's entirely on others, and their incorrect impressions! An ecollar, as they are now, are a very effective and useful tool!

Not the point of the thread though! Point of the thread is and always was, is that the ONLY WAY to teach a behavior!!!

It isn't and it never will be. So, just broaden your own training perspective here. Not attacking anyone for thier practices, not condemning anything, just trying to grow awareness. More than one way to skin a cat, is a statement that has very little to do with cats... Just food for thought, that's all...
 

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On the use of e-collars by pet owners, Lou says (ELECTRONIC COLLARS – WEANING THE DOG OFF THE ECOLLAR | SIRIUS DOG) "BTW either a dog is reliable or he’s not. Reliability means 100%." "Personal Protection dogs or Police Service Dogs; DO need reliability. But just because you own a pet, rather than a working dog, doesn’t mean that you too, can’t have a reliable dog. "
Well, yes and no.
Yes you can have a reliable companion dog, but it doesn't mean you need to do it the way police or ring dog trainers do it. Doesn't mean you need to use tools and protocols that originate from ring trainers or police dog trainers, or another specific area of practice, to get a reliable "companion" dog.
Also, please note that "companion dog" VS "whatever dog" isn't a clear-cut distinction. We aren't talking about an apple and a shovel here. Just about dogs trained in different ways for different tasks and lifestyles.

Personal feeling of course, but I like that I don't have control over everything, I like that I actually have to trust my dogs to make the right choices in various situations, and that they, in turn, have to trust me enough to take my word for it. Actually, it forces me to think about what I'm asking/doing, to constantly adapt, assess how reliable they are VS the environment, etc.
I like that I haven't been counting on any remote control device to this day to achieve reliability, because yes, it makes the journey much less "clean" and smooth, less uniformized/standardized so to speak (less "technical" too, to a certain extent, though technicality exists in various forms), but it also makes it very interesting and enriching (at least to me).
I like that the way we train is a colorful mix of, yes, conditioned stuff (you do need to condition stuff and create reflexes and work on instantaneous compliance for some commands), plus intuitive communication and nuances, plus having read a whole novel sitting in my chicken enclosure to work on my chicken ban, plus having had that strange first parachute jump feeling when I decided that we didn't need a leash anymore, etc.

So my point is, I don't feel "bad" about people using the e-collar to proof stuff through escape/avoidance training.
But I'm still not sure I agree with Lou's vision that it could benefit to anyone, at any point of training. I came across an old thread from jarn, where Lou says that "believing you should start training with other methods, and only then can the Ecollar be used to proof those behaviors", was wrong/a misconception, that his practice had proven wrong.
I totally understand his point, but I just wonder how it would impact a dog owner's journey to kind of "cut through" all that diversity of experiences that yes, imply to take a certain amount of risk, but still teach you a lot along the way.
Safety first at all costs? If someone feels that way, fine by me. I guess I just don't as of now.
 

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I have worked dogs that were trained with e collars, I had even used them on those dogs. Shadow was the first of my dogs that I thought would benefit from it and I screwed it up, because I am a genius at screwing things up. Not in a bad way, I didn't scare or hurt her, I just taught her the wrong thing.
I wanted to be able to let her run loose and she is a dedicated hunter with crazy prey drive. I thought with the e collar she could be taught to come off a track or chase. But I started with the recall, as directed. No one could have predicted that she would grasp the concept in one or two reps, and I would never have imagined the connection she would make from that.
Instead of a dog that can run loose with the e collar I created a dog that won't leave my side with the e collar! It doesn't bother her, she just thinks that is what it means. I was never able to unteach it. David probably could have figured it out, I can't.
Hey @Sabis mom, so, I went back to this FR Malinois blog on which I had read about escape/avoidance training a few years ago (GAYA) and I just found a paragraph there that sounds like it may relate to your experience with Shadow, so I just translated it into English:
"For dummies: if you start by using the remote control collar for recall, you expose yourself to the fact that each time you give a stimulation, the dog will systematically return to his owner's feet, no matter what the command is, because it is this response that allowed him to stop the stimulation the first time. So we foolishly deprive ourselves of the main interest of a remote control, by destroying the possibility of using it in conditioning for all the other functions or situations necessary for remote training, and they are numerous in Ring: garde au ferme, conduite de l'HA, object guarding, etc."

Just a DeepL translation so may not be perfect. I left a couple of FR terms untranslated at the end as it's ring jargon and DeepL had no clue what it was. lol
 

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Many years ago I always started pups off leash. So the leash was an after thought. I did not need one other then to comply with laws. As laws got more strict, and cities more crowded it became necessary to reverse that.
Then I got a deaf Great Dane. For obvious reasons a deaf dog cannot run loose without training. It shifted a lot of the way I approached things. I imagine that an e collar would have made training her much simpler. Although I may not have learned as much and I doubt she would have accomplished as much because I would not have needed to be as creative..
I have no issues with using an e collar on a pup other then I suspect it would make a lot of owners lazy.
Someone commented to me a while back that I always look happy walking with my dog, and I walk her constantly. Most of the owners I see look miserable. That tells me a lot about how average dog owners feel. And how things would be if we pushed a shortcut to them.
 
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