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Should be a good fit, not sure why you you might feel the need for prong collars, if you are good enough at training there is no need for anything like that.
I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.

That being said, I have absolutely nothing against their use. I just think you shouldn't enter into training a puppy thinking that "at some point, a prong collar will be needed".

Or an ecollar for that matter! You have all these "professional" trainers online telling you that the "only" way to get 100% obedience off leash is with an ecollar.

Put simply, there's no such thing as 100% obedience. There are competing motivators! A dog will choose everytime, whether what you're asking versus what they're after means more! So yeah, you can crank up the shock and it will help some of the time. Not always though...nothing is 100% unless you shock the dog such that he/she cannot continue moving.

It's difficult to witness! And I personally don't ever recommend it. You know, to each their own, but my dog, with zero ecollar work, is 98% reliable off leash! I'm happy with that, and see no need to introduce an ecollar!
 

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The Nerd Herder
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I just have to point this out Tim.

I've trained many dogs, and never ever used a prong collar.

Or an ecollar for that matter!
So you have never trained a dog with these tools.

Put simply, there's no such thing as 100% obedience.
But you somehow know that 100% recall is impossible without shocking the dog until it doesn't move. This is false.

Some of the highest level trainers in the world use these tools to work in incredibly distracting environments. Take a look at a PSA3 trial, Ring trials, SAR, bomb detection, field trials.

While I understand that no tool is necessary, demeaning those that use these tools properly is offensive, particularly when you don't have any experience in their use.
 

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I never used a prong or E collar on any dog and also had good results in obedience. Then the WL GSDs came along. I can honestly say that Deja is bomb proof and 100% obedient because I am always aware what I am asking from her in certain situations.
Tim, please tell me how you would address crazy prey drive in wild life areas when the dog doesn't care about treats, toys or play and is off leash. The temporary use of the E collar bought her her freedom on the trails.
 

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A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,
can you provide some information about the dogs you’ve worked with (breed, lines, drive) and some specific examples / scenarios of what you consider high standards…
 

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I think it is pretty bold to say literally 100% obedience can be attained.... how about 99.9% ? Lots of variables here, depends what scenarios your dog will be put in and expected to obey, definitely depends on specific dog and competence of trainer, there needs to be a way of teaching that commands are not optional at some point.
 

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I think it is pretty bold to say literally 100% obedience can be attained.... how about 99.9% ? Lots of variables here, depends what scenarios your dog will be put in and expected to obey, definitely depends on specific dog and competence of trainer, there needs to be a way of teaching that commands are not optional at some point.
I have never used the Ecollar for obedience but just to break her from chasing and killing wildlife. I will let you know when she is no longer 100% obedient. I use the prong as a safety device because I have a weak back.
 

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can you provide some information about the dogs you’ve worked with (breed, lines, drive) and some specific examples / scenarios of what you consider high standards…
You want me to go over 40 years of training dogs from Pyrenean's to Bull Mastiff''s to GSD and dozens of others besides and list specifics, and scenarios, sorry haven't got a spare few days.
 

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I don't know why this is always an either/or argument. Use the right tool/method for the dog you have in the situation you are in.
I maintain that a vast majority of pet owners either never challenge their dogs behavior or never put the dogs in a challenging situation. It is relatively easy to have a well behaved dog when all you ask it to do is what it wants to.
 

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You want me to go over 40 years of training dogs from Pyrenean's to Bull Mastiff''s to GSD and dozens of others besides and list specifics, and scenarios, sorry haven't got a spare few days.
or you could be reasonable and just share a few that seem relevant to this conversation.

edits:

clarifying - i’m not necessarily agreeing, disagreeing or challenging you, but i feel like context is important here.

adding - for instance, if i was asked to share some details about the guide dogs i train (about 80 to date) i’d simply select a few cases that were challenging or impressive or those that successfully demonstrate the techniques i use / support.
 

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A dog does not need pain to be trained, all of my dogs have been trained to high standard and other peoples dogs without the use of anything like these,
Define high standard. That's a vague statement.
 

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I'll say that proofing commands with corrections is necessary to get a dog to perform behaviors that differ drastically from their natural reaction. The stronger the natural response the dog has to a stimulus, the less likely it is to perform a counter intuitive behavior.

As an example, an out after a send, particularly on a decoy or target that is stimulating the dog either through movements that are familiar to the dog or by running away.

The likelihood that the dog will perform a counter intuitive command decreases with distance.

Achieving anywhere near consistent obedience in highly distracting and stressful situations at distance takes proofing. It takes corrections. The choice of tools is irrelevant to the core of the conversation. A correction with a rock, finger, collar, stick, whatever works for the trainer and the dog is necessary.
 

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I cannot see the point of getting a dog that is as smart as a GS, then trying to knock it completely out of him. If you want a dumb dog that will be obedient, get a dumber dog.

sheesh....
I say that putting OB on a dog, in a fair manner of course, leads to a much better life for the dog. Valor spends almost all his time off leash, doing what he wants to do. Occasionally I have to step in and give him some guidance. We are able to do things he loves to do because I know I can trust him.

I won't even get into how much working dogs love their job and that it would be impossible without OB.
 
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