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Discussion Starter #1
Could anyone here tell me what you would do in the case of a buyer demanding a replacement puppy, but refusing to provide verification of ED?
I offered a puppy last year when I had one available. This woman threatened with law suit if she didn't get a pup from a certain female bred to a certain male Within Six Months, which meant I was supposed to make a breeding when the female wasn't even in heat. Not to mention demanding that I make a breeding I had no plans to make. It's been over a year since I bred anything,and a month after current breeding was made, I contacted the woman asked if she wanted me to reserve a replacement pup, if a litter was produced from this mating. That was about month ago. A week later she emailed back with yes. Over a week ago I asked for verification, OFA rating preferably, but at least exrays with the dogs ID on the exray. She has unequivocally said she has " no intentions of providing me with such documentation" and doesn't like the implications of such a request. I might add that all this started after she decided to get involved in FR sport. She castrated said dog while still a pup and people at club, according to her , told her what a shame. What would you do? Need some input, please.
 

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This seems like a no brainer to me. If there isn't any proof provided that the dog has ED, then obviously I wouldn't give her a new dog (puppy). You left out the part of your story regarding when and how she contacted you in regards to the dog having ED, but it sounds like you decided to do the breeding she originally wanted, and then she said the current dog had ED and now wants a free puppy from the litter she originally wanted?

I don't understand at all how she could sue you, sounds like a BS claim (anyone can sue anyone of course, but I don't see how she could win such a suit) made to get you to provide a litter for a breeding she possibly had a despoit on? I would've returned the deposit and washed my hands of this woman.
 

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First off without proof of an xray showing that the said dog had bad hips I wouldn't have done anything to replace with another puppy. She could sue you until the cows come home but no judge will reward her without proof. 2nd I wouldn't have a client tell me which dogs she wants to be bred as I know which dogs here would make the best breeding pair not the client
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Contract says proof must be provided, OFA rating because many vets misread x rays. Says she's not going to spend the money. I was even going to let her send just x rays, but dog's ID must be on the film. I would pay to have my vet give his opinion. She has given me another ultimatum, date to pick puppy up in mid Jan., which means the pup would only be about six weeks old, too young to go. this dog is now 3years,4 months old.
She waited till eight months after surgery on elbow ( he was less than a year old at time of surgery, from what I can glean from her)

to tell me it was done, sort of in a casual conversation. But when the dog was six or seven months old she called and said the vets thought he had a pinched nerve in his neck and wanted to do exploratory surgery. I talked her out of it, because she described pano-- A pup holding a front leg up and whimpering, and periodic lameness, that the vets said was a pinched nerve.
 

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whew...my personal, uneducated, opinion is she can't do jack since your contract specifies that she has to provide proof. What does your contract state about a replacement puppy? Spay/neuter of first dog? Does she have to prove that? Does she have to return the first dog?

And what country are you in? Aren't you in Canada? That might change things as far as suing and who would win.

I absolutely would NOT let her give me ultimatums. She'll provide proof or she'll get nothing and since she's being a bully, I would make her spend the money for the OFA's as well. I bet she just goes away in the end.
 

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Well if your contract says no pup without proof - then hold her to it. It really sounds fishy to me and I think she is trying to dream up any situation that gets her a new pup, for FREE.

For me, if my dog was having surgery for anything, I am going to want more than 1 opinion. If the vet says ED, then I want xrays sent to OFA confirming their diagnosis. If she didn't choose to do this and now its too late because surgery has been done, then tough luck! The vet must have kept the original xrays on file, so at least you can see them - at the very least she needs to have them sent to you.

Stick to your contract - don't let her guilt trip you, and DO NOT allow her to call the shots. Even considering giving her a pup without proof the first pup has ED is more that I would have done. Now she wants it when it is convenient for HER. Not frickin' likely - if she doesn't smarten up, put her big girl panties on, and start working WITH you, tell her to take a hike!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
This seems like a no brainer to me. If there isn't any proof provided that the dog has ED, then obviously I wouldn't give her a new dog (puppy). You left out the part of your story regarding when and how she contacted you in regards to the dog having ED, but it sounds like you decided to do the breeding she originally wanted, and then she said the current dog had ED and now wants a free puppy from the litter she originally wanted?

I don't understand at all how she could sue you, sounds like a BS claim (anyone can sue anyone of course, but I don't see how she could win such a suit) made to get you to provide a litter for a breeding she possibly had a despoit on? I would've returned the deposit and washed my hands of this woman.
No, I did not do the breeding she originally wanted. She called to get a pup basically for a companion to ob train that would be safe with her show line female. Supposedly had a fenced yard. Dog five or six mo old and she called in tears how her boy friend was going to have animal control pick the dog up because it bit his four yr old niece ( didn't break the skin).asked how that happened, she explained they keep him tied to a tree in front yard, kid ran passed, pup did what pups do. I read her the riot act and told her I'd take the dog back. She wanted to keep him, so would move out. I offered to keep this dog til she relocated, free of charge, but she ended up kicking boyfriend out. Whew!!! Sounds like, feels like soap opera. Didn't hear anything til one day almost two years ago, she called on her way back from training in Illinois, (she lives in SC.) Told me how great her dog is doing after elbow surgery and how impressed the trainers are at the club some fifteen HUNDRED miles away from where she lives, that she trains with on weekends. Then about six months later, she asked if I had an older pup that could mondio or FR ring or some such. Told about a super twelve week old female I'd started training that I'd give her because of the prob with her dog. Then it turned into demanding a sable male with the same breeding as the dog she has(even though she was by then saying I sold her "a genetic defect", her words) then the ultimatums; date I was to have a pup available for her, or else. ( lawsuit and slather me and my supposed not standing by my dog all over the Internet if I didn't give her a pup from the breeding she demanded). Still haven't at that time ANY proof of ED. I said to her, when I have pup for her I'd let her know. Not good enough,She wanted one when SHE wanted it. So, I told her I'd give her a full refund with return of the dog. This was on my attorney's advice. Blocked her e mails because of abusiveness. It has been over a year since I have made a breeding, and, I true to my word, and against my attorney's advice( she said not to contact woman, let her make arrangement for delivery of dog to collect
refund). I asked for proof of ED, and now you know the rest by my prior posting. What else can I do?
This was
 

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I would take your contract and spend some money (It won't be much) for a consult with an attorney. If possible, I would consider a refund rather than another puppy because then you are done with her and it sounds like you really don't want to go any further. [Edit, I posted this while you were posting-maybe let her keep the dog though if she can produce receipts for the surgery]

Going forward, I really like what the lady I got my puppy from did (and I know her personally before I got a dog from her and she, not I, brought it up and put in her standard contract (not verbatim this was the verbal part) :

"I don't do replacement puppies - I don't breed enough to ensure the right match at the right time"
"If the puppy does not pass OFA I will refund your money provided that you have not neutered the dog and that the dog has been kept in lean healthy condition. " FWIW she is concerned the early neutering can cause ortho problems.

Pretty straightforward but honestly - I have one dysplastic dog and I never aksed that breeder (a different person) for a refund or replacement. I figure if you want a guarantee, you get an older dog. The only warranty should be figured out up front in the breeder doing due diligence to produce sound puppies.
 

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So, I told her I'd give her a full refund with return of the dog. This was on my attorney's advice. Blocked her e mails because of abusiveness. It has been over a year since I have made a breeding, and, I true to my word, and against my attorney's advice( she said not to contact woman, let her make arrangement for delivery of dog to collect
refund). I asked for proof of ED, and now you know the rest by my prior posting. What else can I do?
This was
go back to this advice
 

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Discussion Starter #13
go back to this advice
You need to realize, she flatly refused a refund. Did not want to wait until I had a pup from next breeding, gave me ultimatum ; pup within six month from specific female ( would have been at least eight if I waited for female to cycle), or sue and badmouth. Telling me who I was to breed and when was more than I could stand. Went to attorney and she said have her call and make arrangement to bring the dog to me, hand me his leash and I hand her a check. I had at one point offered to give a full refund and she could go buy her own replacement and keep her dog, neutered since he was about five months. She said no. My attorney said she can NOT have a refund and keep the dog. It's been over a year, I have a litter of pups and wanted to give her a pup from this litter, I want OFA verification, she said she has no intention of doing that. Got email little while ago,she asked, " why would she lie about it ?" and said she'd send exrays "when she sends them" . I don't know, I think OFA would be more qualified to evaluate elbows than me. So, yes, I have tried to do what I should, but I'm also not going to be scammed.
 

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You need to realize that if she flatly refused a refund, flatly refused to send to OFA and flatly refused to provide you with any proof then you are off the hook. Go back to the advice from your lawyer, or contact them again, and stop all communications with this person.
 

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Most contracts only go by ED not HD, and also say you have to provide proof from a well trained vet and the dog is not to be put under during the x-rays. If the buyer was using the pup for FR, they could've been doing it too young and too often and caused problems that doesn't necessarily mean that the pup was a badly bred pup from you, these things just happen when proper care isn't taken.

I've never seen a contract that doesn't say the pup WILL be pulled out of buyers care if riding freely in the back of a pickup truck, being tied out or any other form of abuse. Why didn't you pull the puppy from her care when you knew it was on a tie out?

Bottom line is she willingly signed a contract saying no refund or new puppy without PROOF of ED/HD. I would take the pup back, give her a full refund and NOT sell or replace the pup.
 

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I don't want this to sound rude, but there is really no other way of putting this, you need to grow a backbone. You have already gone well far and beyond what is required of you and IMHO I don't think you should have caved to any of her demands or made concessions for her. It's an admirable trait that you are trying to do the right thing here and make amends, but this has only empowered her and put her in a position where she feels she can bully you around.

This woman is harassing you and making demands she has absolutely no right to make. It sounds like she is attempting to scam you. If the dog has elbow dysplasia you have every right to request proof of that before a replacement. That is just the world we live in.

I would definitely do what you (ethically and legally) can to avoid placing another puppy in the home of such a distasteful person. If she persists the harassment or shows up on your property, file criminal charges for harassment/trespass (presuming she won't leave the property, and it sounds like she is the kind of person who might not). Let her know beforehand in a very firm, authoritative letter that you will honor your end of the contract when she honors hers, i.e., provides proof of ED in the form of OFA verification. The buck stops there. End of story. You should not have to settle for any less than that because of her belligerence. SHE wants something from YOU - you have the upper hand here. Don't give it to her.

Your attorney had good advice to end this mess in the "cleanest" way possible, but she has refused that and now you can wash your hands of this. It sucks that this pup is now stuck with her, but the last thing you want at this point I imagine is for another one of your dogs to go to her. Best to settle back to the terms of your original contract and then stop all communication, because it sounds like there was never any ED. If she wants to badmouth you and it gets bad enough you can try to sue for libel/slander. Considering this is a source of income for you, it's a bit more serious than just character defamation.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Draugr, thank you for your honesty.

She claimed the pup was tied out when they were out front but who knows. She was crying and upset about prospect of losing the dog, I tried to help with her situation and explained why you don't tie any dog out. Of course she blamed the boyfriend. Offered to take the pup back on at least two occasions. Said she was moving out, then kicked boy friend out. Now moved out of state.
 

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I keep coming back to this thread expecting to see a new user with 1 post commenting...

Good luck with your situation, Jonro.
 

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If the buyer was using the pup for FR, they could've been doing it too young and too often and caused problems that doesn't necessarily mean that the pup was a badly bred pup from you, these things just happen when proper care isn't taken.
I was thinking this. ED is also very broad. I could say my Malinois has ED because she injured her elbow and needed surgery. $1,300. I might try to blame the breeder for breeding a high drive dog with weak elbows, but that would be stupid.
 

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I am not a breeder, but if I were, and had your contract, sorry, I wouldn't let this woman be telling me 'what' to do..

Show me the xrays with the dogs name on them and I'll replace the puppy when I have one available, no xrays, no puppy, go ahead and sue me:)
 
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