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Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone! I?m posting for a friend of a mine and we?re trying to come to a decision and need info on breeding.

We have never bred any dog at all. He currently has a german shepherd with some titles (Schutzhund III and I think SG not a bad 100% sure). We?ve been thinking about breeding him in the future with my female (IPO I) but we?re not sure if it?s a good idea because we?re not experienced and we know we should leave the breeding to experience breeders.

Our reason for breeding is to pass on their genes. I think they?re both good candidates to help the german shepherd breed. We won?t be selling them, we have family and friends that want german shepherds so we plan on just giving the pups to them. Is this a good reason to breed them?

Also we contacted a few experienced breeders from the club we go to and they?re charging us around $600 to breed them and they get first pick of the litter. We?re not really comfortable doing this or if this is even normal for breeders to charge that much to breed our shepherds.

Anyways just curious on opinions if we should do this or not. If you guys think we should, what are our options for breeding (we pay someone to do it or we do it ourselves)? If we should do it ourselves, can you guys direct me to a link or explain how to do it and what we should be expecting please? Thanks guys!

PS I?ve read and seen breeding is frowned upon so if you guys think we shouldn?t do it, feel free to say it with a good reason please :) seen other people just say ?no you have no clue about the german shepherd breed?

Thanks again!
 

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It's not breeding per se that is frowned upon... it is BAD breeding that is frowned upon.

From what it sounds like... breeding these two dogs would be a very bad idea. It is NOT as simple as putting two titled dogs together. You need to KNOW their pedigrees, how the pedigrees compliment each other, what the dogs close up and further back in the pedigree bring to the table.

I have seen plenty of purebred dogs out of titled parents that were genetic DISASTERS all because the pedigrees did not compliment each other. Stuff like weak nerves from one line pairing with civility in another that creates out right dangerous and reactive dogs.

You need to be an expert at reading pedigrees before ever considering making a pairing if you want to be a GOOD breeder and produce stable dogs.

What I would suggest if you still want to breed eventually is get involved with some dog sport, make connections there, and find an experienced breeder willing to mentor you. Your girl may or may not be breeding quality. Working her in a sport will help determine that. Your mentor will help you make the decision on the right stud for her if she is a breeding quality animal.
 

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You need to KNOW their pedigrees, how the pedigrees compliment each other, what the dogs close up and further back in the pedigree bring to the table.

You need to be an expert at reading pedigrees before ever considering making a pairing if you want to be a GOOD breeder and produce stable dogs.
Voodoolamb, I have seen similar comments in the past and always wondered what this actually means. Is this information that can be understood by looking at the "paper" pedigree? Or do you mean actually KNOWING the dogs in the pedigree and understanding their behavior and how it might work with another dogs traits?

I assume the later, and imagine only very few breeders would have the knowledge/experience to make a good pairing (not saying that's a bad thing).

Just curious...:smile2:
 

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Voodoolamb, I have seen similar comments in the past and always wondered what this actually means. Is this information that can be understood by looking at the "paper" pedigree? Or do you mean actually KNOWING the dogs in the pedigree and understanding their behavior and how it might work with another dogs traits?

I assume the later, and imagine only very few breeders would have the knowledge/experience to make a good pairing (not saying that's a bad thing).

Just curious...:smile2:
Yes.. it is the second. You have to KNOW the dogs in the pedigree to make a good pairing. I mean you may not need to personally know them, but you need to know what they bring to the table and what they pass on. Information gathered from being involved in the breed, reading the periodicals, watching show scores, seeing progeny, meaningful discussions with other breeders/trainers/handlers about the dogs they've seen, etc.

There are far more bad breeders out there than good ones. Which is why we have so many problems in the breed.
 

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post the two dogs pedigrees.....

then some of us can look at them


Lee
 

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a good match has little , or nothing to do with titles . So no formula of an IPO 111 to an IPO 1 (minimum requirement)

Who are the dogs?

They may be good or individuals that need caution and deep understanding to make a good match .

The "lines" might be inbred , or flooding the gene pool with the same repetitive ancestry , so not a reason to
breed to pass on genes or to help the breed overall.

Can't say much without knowing the pedigrees.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It's not breeding per se that is frowned upon... it is BAD breeding that is frowned upon.

From what it sounds like... breeding these two dogs would be a very bad idea. It is NOT as simple as putting two titled dogs together. You need to KNOW their pedigrees, how the pedigrees compliment each other, what the dogs close up and further back in the pedigree bring to the table.

I have seen plenty of purebred dogs out of titled parents that were genetic DISASTERS all because the pedigrees did not compliment each other. Stuff like weak nerves from one line pairing with civility in another that creates out right dangerous and reactive dogs.

You need to be an expert at reading pedigrees before ever considering making a pairing if you want to be a GOOD breeder and produce stable dogs.

What I would suggest if you still want to breed eventually is get involved with some dog sport, make connections there, and find an experienced breeder willing to mentor you. Your girl may or may not be breeding quality. Working her in a sport will help determine that. Your mentor will help you make the decision on the right stud for her if she is a breeding quality animal.
Thank you for the response! I see what you mean. I met the dad of both pups but never met the mom of the male. To my knowledge they were checked out great on their health (I don?t know the specifics). Both are dogs have been vet checked a month ago and OFA approved for their hips.

I probably won?t be breeding them anymore. As much as we would like to, we both don?t have the knowledge of good breeding at least haha maybe after some more research to see if they?re good candidates.

I asked some experienced breeders at the club but they?re charging us $600 to breed them without knowing their full pedigree so I?m assuming this is a sign that they?re just trying to make money. I?ll post the pedigree up later on, typing on my phone right now.

Do you know any good resources in which I can educate myself to determine if they?re good candidates? When taking them to the vet, the vet says their good but doesn?t really give us specifics lol. I just got the OFA to do sports with them. My club I go too wants to breed them as well but they want to keep 4 of the pups and a $200 fee but not really my idea of good breeding unless that?s normal?
 

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I personally don't think that sounds normal at all. Sounds like some people are trying to cheat you out of money and puppies. Can't word it quite right, but I would not trust them, sounds extremely fishy to me. Since you are the owner of the female I could if they charged you a stud fee for breeding to one of their studs, or got pick of the litter. But not charging you to breed your dog and then keep possibly a majority or all of the pups. That is just ridiculous. And if you are breeding it to a friend's dog there shouldn't be any charging at all unless your friend wanted a stud fee or puppy from the litter.

When breeding your female to a stud dog you don't own,generally you pay a stud fee OR the owner of the stud will take a pup from the litter. I don't know what exactly is going on in this situation with the club members wanting to get involved and charging you but it just sounds ridiculous
 

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Thank you for the response! I see what you mean. I met the dad of both pups but never met the mom of the male. To my knowledge they were checked out great on their health (I don?t know the specifics). Both are dogs have been vet checked a month ago and OFA approved for their hips.

I probably won?t be breeding them anymore. As much as we would like to, we both don?t have the knowledge of good breeding at least haha maybe after some more research to see if they?re good candidates.

I asked some experienced breeders at the club but they?re charging us $600 to breed them without knowing their full pedigree so I?m assuming this is a sign that they?re just trying to make money. I?ll post the pedigree up later on, typing on my phone right now.

Do you know any good resources in which I can educate myself to determine if they?re good candidates? When taking them to the vet, the vet says their good but doesn't really give us specifics lol. I just got the OFA to do sports with them. My club I go too wants to breed them as well but they want to keep 4 of the pups and a $200 fee but not really my idea of good breeding unless that?s normal?

This makes no sense to me.....someone at the club you went to wants you to breed your female to their male, you give them 4 pups and $200??? Way way odd.....not the way it is done at all!!!! You do all the work, take all the risk and they want the bulk of the production????

Hips & elbows should be rated by the OFA or SV for both parents, linebreeding should be identified and understood by the owner of the female who is the party ultimately responsible for these little lives. No one knows if this is a good combination - they just want to make puppies

Again, if you want to get me the pedigrees - I will look at them - or post the links to the parents


Lee
 

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Thank you for the response! I see what you mean. I met the dad of both pups but never met the mom of the male. To my knowledge they were checked out great on their health (I don?t know the specifics). Both are dogs have been vet checked a month ago and OFA approved for their hips.

I probably won?t be breeding them anymore. As much as we would like to, we both don?t have the knowledge of good breeding at least haha maybe after some more research to see if they?re good candidates.

I asked some experienced breeders at the club but they?re charging us $600 to breed them without knowing their full pedigree so I?m assuming this is a sign that they?re just trying to make money. I?ll post the pedigree up later on, typing on my phone right now.

Do you know any good resources in which I can educate myself to determine if they?re good candidates? When taking them to the vet, the vet says their good but doesn?t really give us specifics lol. I just got the OFA to do sports with them. My club I go too wants to breed them as well but they want to keep 4 of the pups and a $200 fee but not really my idea of good breeding unless that?s normal?
That does sound odd, unfair, and like the people at your club care more about making $$$ than the health of the breed. I would pass on their "offers".

As far as good resources... both Carmen and Lee have kindly offered to look at your dog's pedigree. They are both experienced breeders that have produced successful dogs... so that would be a good place to start ;)
 

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looks like someone in "the club" wants to club you . What the heck kind of proposition is that? Not normal.
Did they expect you to raise them?

Sounds like people are trying to take advantage of your inexperience and your enthusiasm -- and wanting
to belong to a group.

My spidey senses would be put on guard .
Does this person who made the 4 pups back and a $200 fee have any influence over your dog in the club?
Is this a person who could take up attitude and retaliate - harm the dogs training success ?

I'd like to hear more about your female .
 

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Discussion Starter #13
post the two dogs pedigrees.....

then some of us can look at them


Lee
Sorry been super busy!!

Here?s the pedigree: there a little out of date.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=730361-dixie-sara-vom-haus-nouchko

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2525000-haldo-di-casan-marco


Been super busy so I?ve only been able to use my phone to talk on here. I decided not too breed them though because it seems too shady for me to find an experience breeder to help lol
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thank you for the response! I see what you mean. I met the dad of both pups but never met the mom of the male. To my knowledge they were checked out great on their health (I don?t know the specifics). Both are dogs have been vet checked a month ago and OFA approved for their hips.

I probably won?t be breeding them anymore. As much as we would like to, we both don?t have the knowledge of good breeding at least haha maybe after some more research to see if they?re good candidates.

I asked some experienced breeders at the club but they?re charging us $600 to breed them without knowing their full pedigree so I?m assuming this is a sign that they?re just trying to make money. I?ll post the pedigree up later on, typing on my phone right now.

Do you know any good resources in which I can educate myself to determine if they?re good candidates? When taking them to the vet, the vet says their good but doesn't really give us specifics lol. I just got the OFA to do sports with them. My club I go too wants to breed them as well but they want to keep 4 of the pups and a $200 fee but not really my idea of good breeding unless that?s normal?

This makes no sense to me.....someone at the club you went to wants you to breed your female to their male, you give them 4 pups and $200??? Way way odd.....not the way it is done at all!!!! You do all the work, take all the risk and they want the bulk of the production????

Hips & elbows should be rated by the OFA or SV for both parents, linebreeding should be identified and understood by the owner of the female who is the party ultimately responsible for these little lives. No one knows if this is a good combination - they just want to make puppies

Again, if you want to get me the pedigrees - I will look at them - or post the links to the parents


Lee
Yeah it seems really shady. It?s not even their male, it?s a buddy of mine. I understand a stud fee but I?m just asking for help in doing this lol
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I personally don't think that sounds normal at all. Sounds like some people are trying to cheat you out of money and puppies. Can't word it quite right, but I would not trust them, sounds extremely fishy to me. Since you are the owner of the female I could if they charged you a stud fee for breeding to one of their studs, or got pick of the litter. But not charging you to breed your dog and then keep possibly a majority or all of the pups. That is just ridiculous. And if you are breeding it to a friend's dog there shouldn't be any charging at all unless your friend wanted a stud fee or puppy from the litter.

When breeding your female to a stud dog you don't own,generally you pay a stud fee OR the owner of the stud will take a pup from the litter. I don't know what exactly is going on in this situation with the club members wanting to get involved and charging you but it just sounds ridiculous
Yeah honestly I don?t know what?s up with them. I left the club because I see who they truely are lol I just wanted to get some a good training for my dog and make some friends with other german shepherd enthusiasts but doesn?t seem like it here.

Pretty much in short, I got a female, friend of mine got a male. We were wanting to breed them but had no clue how and if it?s good for the breed. Went to my club members fornhelp since they have experience but their just being shady and want to make money.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
looks like someone in "the club" wants to club you . What the heck kind of proposition is that? Not normal.
Did they expect you to raise them?

Sounds like people are trying to take advantage of your inexperience and your enthusiasm -- and wanting
to belong to a group.

My spidey senses would be put on guard .
Does this person who made the 4 pups back and a $200 fee have any influence over your dog in the club?
Is this a person who could take up attitude and retaliate - harm the dogs training success ?

I'd like to hear more about your female .
What would you like to know about her? Yeah all of this is shady for me lol yes this person is one of the trainers for the club. Ended up leaving the club because I saw their true colors.

I?m not experienced at all in breeding what so ever so I wasn?t sure if this was a normal thing. Basically they?ll breed them, I?ll take care of the puppies until I think they?re ready to be separated from the mother (personally I think 3-4 months but they recommended 2 months) and they?ll keep 4 of the puppies and I?m free to do whatever I want with the rest. I pay for shots and akc of the litter. I spent enough money for my dog and I don?t think I?ll be willing to pay for the shots of these pups and everything. My plan was that the family and friends who will be taking the pups will sign a contract that they?ll pay for the expenses of these pups (the akc, shots, and anything else I need to do to care for them). I won?t be making any money as that isn?t my intentions to do so just will be breaking even for everything. If they can?t give me money, I would just donate these pups to a local german shepherd rescue. At least that was the plan lol
 

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Those are both good, solid German showline pedigrees, and I don't see any red flags as far as too much too much inbreeding/linebreeding. (Not going to go into the whole problem of the German showlines having such a narrow genetic base...) Now, the questions only you and your friend can answer: what are the individual strengths and weaknesses of these two dogs, and do they complement each other? Why am I doing this breeding - is it going to contribute something to the breed? Can I find good homes for all of the pups, or are some of them going to wind up in rescue?

As far as breeding goes, the best time for pups to go to their new homes is 8 weeks of age. Studies have shown that this is the best age, physically and mentally, for them to begin bonding with a new owner. By that age, they have been wormed twice, and had their initial shots and vet check, which the breeder pays for. The breeder is also responsible for registering the litter. This is what EVERY good breeder is expected to do.

Mom should be wormed before being bred, and all her shots should be up to date as she passes her immunity on to the pups through her milk, before they are old enough to be vaccinated. They can also pick up parasites from her (most often roundworms) so that's the reason for worming.

The hardest part of breeding is finding good homes for the puppies. Even experienced breeders sometimes get conned - 2 puppies from my youngest dog's litter went to someone who promised to give them excellent care, and said they had a big yard for the dogs to play in, etc. etc.

He actually lived in an apartment, and kept the pups in a crate. He was arrested and thrown in prison, and the breeder got the pups back, because they were microchipped, and he hadn't changed the ownership info on the chips. (This is why a conscientious breeder ALWAYS microchips their pups before selling them!) The pups were so lacking in muscle that their pasterns were almost touching the ground.

Since you were involved with a schutzhund club, you will likely get good homes for some of the puppies, and given their pedigrees, you should get a good price for them, probably around $2,000 each. Check the ads on the Pedigree Database to get a rough idea of what showline puppies from V and VA bloodlines are selling for - they definitely ain't cheap! (I'm telling you this to protect you from the club members who seemed to want to cheat you.)

Another thing I would strongly recommend is you find someone to mentor you if you DO decide to go ahead with the breeding. Someone who can be available to help with the whelping if necessary. Breeding dogs isn't for the faint of heart, and it's a pretty steep learning curve! You need to be able to tell when the bitch is in trouble and needs help with a stalled labour. You need to know how to get a weak newborn breathing, and what to do if it's too weak to suckle. And you need to be prepared to maybe lose some of the pups, in spite of making your best effort to help them.

You will need a spot in your house where you can set up a whelping pen. It needs to be a place that can be kept warm, private and free of drafts. It needs to have a floor that is easily cleaned. It's not unusual for a GSD to have 8 to 10 puppies, and once they are out of the 'nest' and roaming around, you are going to spend a LOT of time cleaning up after them. (Most breeders are happy to see the pups go to their new homes at 8 weeks... they are a LOT of work!)

Yeah - I could go on, but I think I've given you enough to think about. It's a big decision. If you decide to go ahead with it, prepare to have your life turned upside down for at least 8 weeks!

Edited to add: I just noticed Dixie doesn't have her hip or elbow x-rays listed. Have they been done? They definitely NEED to be done before you breed her!
 

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Forgot to include this: you need to find out as much as you can about dogs farther back in the pedigree, too. That's another reason to get a good mentor, someone who's been familiar with the breed for a long time.
 

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yes, in most areas you can go to the vet and have side-by-side AI done for less than $600. I know that I live in a cheap area but I can have the vet do it for $120. If I go to a breeder friend, she'll do it for $40.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Those are both good, solid German showline pedigrees, and I don't see any red flags as far as too much too much inbreeding/linebreeding. (Not going to go into the whole problem of the German showlines having such a narrow genetic base...) Now, the questions only you and your friend can answer: what are the individual strengths and weaknesses of these two dogs, and do they complement each other? Why am I doing this breeding - is it going to contribute something to the breed? Can I find good homes for all of the pups, or are some of them going to wind up in rescue?

As far as breeding goes, the best time for pups to go to their new homes is 8 weeks of age. Studies have shown that this is the best age, physically and mentally, for them to begin bonding with a new owner. By that age, they have been wormed twice, and had their initial shots and vet check, which the breeder pays for. The breeder is also responsible for registering the litter. This is what EVERY good breeder is expected to do.

Mom should be wormed before being bred, and all her shots should be up to date as she passes her immunity on to the pups through her milk, before they are old enough to be vaccinated. They can also pick up parasites from her (most often roundworms) so that's the reason for worming.

The hardest part of breeding is finding good homes for the puppies. Even experienced breeders sometimes get conned - 2 puppies from my youngest dog's litter went to someone who promised to give them excellent care, and said they had a big yard for the dogs to play in, etc. etc.

He actually lived in an apartment, and kept the pups in a crate. He was arrested and thrown in prison, and the breeder got the pups back, because they were microchipped, and he hadn't changed the ownership info on the chips. (This is why a conscientious breeder ALWAYS microchips their pups before selling them!) The pups were so lacking in muscle that their pasterns were almost touching the ground.

Since you were involved with a schutzhund club, you will likely get good homes for some of the puppies, and given their pedigrees, you should get a good price for them, probably around $2,000 each. Check the ads on the Pedigree Database to get a rough idea of what showline puppies from V and VA bloodlines are selling for - they definitely ain't cheap! (I'm telling you this to protect you from the club members who seemed to want to cheat you.)

Another thing I would strongly recommend is you find someone to mentor you if you DO decide to go ahead with the breeding. Someone who can be available to help with the whelping if necessary. Breeding dogs isn't for the faint of heart, and it's a pretty steep learning curve! You need to be able to tell when the bitch is in trouble and needs help with a stalled labour. You need to know how to get a weak newborn breathing, and what to do if it's too weak to suckle. And you need to be prepared to maybe lose some of the pups, in spite of making your best effort to help them.

You will need a spot in your house where you can set up a whelping pen. It needs to be a place that can be kept warm, private and free of drafts. It needs to have a floor that is easily cleaned. It's not unusual for a GSD to have 8 to 10 puppies, and once they are out of the 'nest' and roaming around, you are going to spend a LOT of time cleaning up after them. (Most breeders are happy to see the pups go to their new homes at 8 weeks... they are a LOT of work!)

Yeah - I could go on, but I think I've given you enough to think about. It's a big decision. If you decide to go ahead with it, prepare to have your life turned upside down for at least 8 weeks!

Edited to add: I just noticed Dixie doesn't have her hip or elbow x-rays listed. Have they been done? They definitely NEED to be done before you breed her!
Thank you for the info! You know I don?t know what the weaknesses are for these dogs. They?re both great dogs and not too sure what weaknesses I would say these dogs have. I would hope that me breeding them would help the breed to produce better quality shepherds. I talked to my family and friends and all of them are willing to give me the full payment before they are even born. I have 12 families lined up already wanting them and I already made it clear that they may not produce 12 pups and none of this is a for sure thing just yet.

I will definitely do all of which you mentioned, vet check, akc, and shots.

The homes I found for these puppies, I definitely do trust them. They?re german shepherd enthusiasts and are willing to sign that if they cannot handle them or if some situation comes up in which they cannot care for the dog, they will be returned to me and I will not refund any money (reason is because I?m not making any money from this, I will be breaking even as the price I?m charging them will be the money I spent to breed them and care for them).

As I?ve been searching, I cannot find any mentors to help me with this breeding process. The people I ran into are charging an expensive fee and I just see them in it for making the money. The only person who said can help is one of my friends who?s studying to be a vet but she won?t be available all the time so that?s what?s stopping me now from breeding them since I know they?re a solid match.

I have a spot I believe I can turn into for them to breed. It?s a 10x10 Kennel, I can put hay to keep it insulated as well as add a heater and it takes me 10 mins to clean it out (literally just take drainage out and hose it out).

Dixie, I had her hips checked and everything. Got OFA certified. Just haven?t been able to sit on a computer and update it haha
 
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