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As a participant in this forum for over two years it is appparent that there is a clique of people here who squash any negative info about peoples experiences with a particular breeder which potential gs dog buyers might find very informative. This forum should ideally be a clearinghouse of experiences good bad or horrible wherein people can exchange their ideas and protect each other from making the same mistakes.
This may sound controversial but.... the bad people in this business should be exposed so that we all are protected.
JUST MHO.
 

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Who will protect the board when the lawsuits start happening?
I remember a couple years ago a well known kennel started threatening the admin and some of the other breeders and some posters who frequent this board because they weren't supporting that kennel when there was a thread going on more or less bashing that kennels price brackets, amount of dogs they were selling and how many of those dogs were not being taken back by the breeder if the owners no longer wanted them(they were turning up in shelters, rescue, or CL)
Nothing that was posted was untruthful, but you can't expect this board to be protected from a lawsuit because of what is posted here.
 

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What clique are you talking about??? Do you mean the admin and moderators? Well, hate to break it to you, but it's against forum rules to "breeder bash", even if it's truthful.

You don't run the board, so you can't make the rules unfortunately.

I agree it would be nice to have some stuff in the open with what people have experienced...but if the people who own the board don't want to expose themselves to potential lawsuits then there isn't anything you can do about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I guess the old saying- "the truth hurts" is very applicable so the bad breeders stay protected- lawsuits are a fact of life in this society but the basis of the suit must be well founded.
 

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I think the original owner of the board just felt like why deal with that kind of crap and the potential fall out? And you can't blame her, remember she started this board as a place for lovers of the breed to get together and help each other. It was a form of relaxation for her.

And I have seen reputations ruined or badly hurt by misinformation spread on the internet, sometimes with the sole motivation of hurting someone.

But you can protect yourself. You can google. You can ask for people to send you negatives via pm.
 

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As a participant in this forum for over two years it is appparent that there is a clique of people here who squash any negative info about peoples experiences with a particular breeder which potential gs dog buyers might find very informative. This forum should ideally be a clearinghouse of experiences good bad or horrible wherein people can exchange their ideas and protect each other from making the same mistakes.
This may sound controversial but.... the bad people in this business should be exposed so that we all are protected.
JUST MHO.
I don't disagree with you. There has been many of a time I have seen people close ranks around someone, look the other way or just shrug their shoulders.

I'm not sure what the solution is.
 

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And I have seen reputations ruined or badly hurt by misinformation spread on the internet, sometimes with the sole motivation of hurting someone.
Amen to that. There are people out there who just get angry because something is wrong with their dog. They didn't pay attention to the contract they signed, they want money back above and beyond the purchase price fo the dog. There are bad breeders out there for sure. But there are also plenty of bad buyers. The kind of slander that starts showing up when people are allowed to air all their grudges can be pretty ugly. Standards for breeders are subjective (regardless of the general consensus) and what I hate to see is when people come on the board, see terrible things about where their dog came from and start to devalue their dog.

The solution is experience and research. What someone didn't like in a breeder or in their dogs may never be a problem for someone else. Personally, this is why I am a big fan of new owners supporting "local" breeders. Breeders that are in a geographic location suitable for driving/visits. 2 reasons basically for this. 1. You get to actually see the facilities, meet the people and the dogs. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for how they fit you. Yes- some people can do this through phone interview successfully- me, I don't love it. Opinions on dogs cna be very subjective. People don't always represent things in an objective manner. 2. Support. There are varying levels of support that can be expected between a breeder and a buyer. Some buyers take their puppies and are off into the sunset never to be heard from again. Some send weekly picture updates. A local breeder is going to be able to offer significantly more support than a breeder from far away- especially if you are looking into any kind of competitive venue. They're going to know the trainers, the vets, etc. It's always nice to show up to a show, trial, whatever, and see your breeder and know that they will be rooting for your dog! And everyone will be working on a more level field.

Once a person has more breed experience I think they can make a better informed decision based on conversations, pedigrees, etc. and start to shop further out of field.
 

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Information about bad breeders can still be sent privately via PM to those requesting the information. It's just against board rules to post it publically!
 

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We all still have the opportunity to share our less than positive experiences with other members, we just have to do it through a PM. That system has certainly worked for me over the last few years. It is not as if we are "banned" from sharing any negative information.

This rule is applied evenly throughout the membership here. It isn't a clique of powerful members in control of what does or doesn't get said. It is a group of volunteer moderators enforcing board rules.
Sheilah
 

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When I joined this board, I asked for experiences with breeders in the Pacific NW, and I got LOADS of feedback, good and bad. The good usually came in the post, and the bad via PM. I kept a running list of every breeder that was mentioned with the good and bad points and experiences in the list.

You just have to ask, and usually people with bad experiences WILL send a private message and you can judge for yourself how accurate it is or how much weight you want to give each 'issue.' After awhile it becomes VERY clear who that problem breeders are because you get 90% bad feedback on them. I narrowed down to 2 breeders in the end, who had all positive comments and no negative.

I agree that putting negative comments on the board is bad news. Someone could have an agenda, or be lying, and then that comment about that breeder is out there in cyberspace for anyone who googles them. Not fair. So just ask for PMs.
 

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I don't know. Recently another board member, Vukc, and I both had what we perceived to be negative experiences with two separate breeders. We were allowed to post factual information about what actually happened to us. Not "I don't like this on the website" or "I heard this and that," but "This is what is actually happening TO ME". So I guess that's allowed.


Edit: Vukc's experience ended well. Mine ended so/so.
 

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Emoore - I concur, but just wanted to add following (not meaning to jump this tread)......My experience is so far so good - but have to wait another 6 weeks to make sure it stays good. :)

In regards to bad and good breeders experiences.... Using PM's is just fine, although sometimes you wish that the really bad ones would be publicly exposed provided there are pure facts which can back up the claims.
 

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Personally, this is why I am a big fan of new owners supporting "local" breeders. Breeders that are in a geographic location suitable for driving/visits. 2 reasons basically for this. 1. You get to actually see the facilities, meet the people and the dogs. You should be able to get a pretty good feel for how they fit you. Yes- some people can do this through phone interview successfully- me, I don't love it. Opinions on dogs cna be very subjective. People don't always represent things in an objective manner. 2. Support. There are varying levels of support that can be expected between a breeder and a buyer. Some buyers take their puppies and are off into the sunset never to be heard from again. Some send weekly picture updates. A local breeder is going to be able to offer significantly more support than a breeder from far away- especially if you are looking into any kind of competitive venue. They're going to know the trainers, the vets, etc. It's always nice to show up to a show, trial, whatever, and see your breeder and know that they will be rooting for your dog! And everyone will be working on a more level field.

Once a person has more breed experience I think they can make a better informed decision based on conversations, pedigrees, etc. and start to shop further out of field.
This is excellent advice. If there isn't a local breeder that fits your needs than at least make a trip to meet your potential breeder in person. A long drive is nothing compared to the lifetime you will be spending with your new dog.
 

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If people want to publicly expose bad breeders there are other boards that allow this. We are just not one of them. There is no way for us to verify if what is being said is true nor to prevent a breeder's reputation (or even a buyer's) from being unjustly damaged.

Admin Lisa

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It is extremely difficult to inform a stranger of any issue known or perceived about a breeder - it is risky and can backfire on you causing a tremendous problem.

When you want info, you need to 'read between the lines' - you need to ask if you can talk to someone on the phone - you need to reassure the person with info that you will NOT repeat it...Even innocent comments about a bloodline or family made as a generality can be misconstrued and cause a holy war when repeated! I had someone talking to me about a puppy for months - MONTHS - go to another breeder and MISQUOTE me about a known risk/health issue - that any number of people in Europe who communicate via lists here in the States could be contacted and they could verify the info themselves - we knew the same sources and it ruined a cordial relationship and caused awkwardness for years!

If anyone went on and posted stud dog XV von Z produced 2 EPI dogs from Kennel ABC - owner of kennel ABC would be breathing fire and calling a lawyer - no matter if it were true!!! Would not matter that puppy XV son's owner is open about the EPI - going public or even private in writing in a factual way- is very very risky.

Lee
 

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Where do breeders get to EXPOSE bad buyers, bad potential puppy buyers?

Sometimes someone comes on here and they say, "Wow, I was just at this puppy mill." And then they describe it. They describe perfectly normal things that would be found anywhere there are puppies. The puppies were wet. There was some grass in the water dish. We do not have the Puppy Possee that can run to each of these breeders and verify what the people are posting.

And there are vindictive people in the world. Rushie's breeder had Animal Control called on him because he refused to lower his price. They came out and checked out her complaint and told him he was fine, that they had to come out, but they had problems with this person in the past. So, this site would be an outlet for people like this to bash people.
 

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The rule against slamming breeders is arbitrarily & inconsistently enforced (OR NOT) largely as the mods/admins decide. Enforcement is decidedly biased. Be that as it is, I'm opposed to breaking a rule just cuz others do & feel that the rule supports the kind of board this is intended to be. There are benefits (& disadvantages) to both free for all & the more constrained boards. This board clearlyaims for a modicum of restraint.

Emoore & Vukc, your posts that I saw were factual, generally non-judgmental & not hyper-critical. I think that your respectful & restrained demeanor had much to do with keeping the discussions within acceptable bounds.
 

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The rule against slamming breeders is arbitrarily & inconsistently enforced (OR NOT) largely as the mods/admins decide. Enforcement is decidedly biased.
Did you send a notification on a breeder bashing post and have it ignored? Or are you assuming that just because the post or posts in question were not removed it was deliberate rather than an oversight? Moderators and administrators do not read every single post in every single thread on the board, and often not even in our own forums. This is a very large and active board and we're stretched thin, not to mention that this is volunteer work done in our spare time, fit in as we can around our work and life schedules. The best way to get action on something is to bring it to our attention by clicking on that "notify" button.
 

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Did you send a notification on a breeder bashing post and have it ignored? Or are you assuming that just because the post or posts in question were not removed it was deliberate rather than an oversight? Moderators and administrators do not read every single post in every single thread on the board, and often not even in our own forums. This is a very large and active board and we're stretched thin, not to mention that this is volunteer work done in our spare time, fit in as we can around our work and life schedules. The best way to get action on something is to bring it to our attention by clicking on that "notify" button.

^^^^ Yup.

I also think perhaps people aren't clear on what constitutes bashing under the way the board rules have been interpreted for years.

If a website is posted, people have always been free to comment on content of the website. Saying they don't agree with this or that, would like to see pedigrees or titles, the dog's don't look nice, don't agree with breeding blue and liver long coats, etc... In other words, opinions based on publically available information that the breeder put out there are allowed so long as they stick to verifiable facts. For example, a breeder spelling it "shepard" is a simple fact if it is there on their website for all to see. Really not a two sides to every story situation. Though of course opinion sharing must not cross the line into a rant.

What is not allowed is sharing or commenting on non-public information, sharing private info such as personal experiences or what was heard in the rumor mill because these are the sort of things where stories and information on which they are based cannot be verified. Though even here there is some leeway depending on how it is presented. Emoore's deposit thread being an example. There was no ranting or bashing, just a sharing of the process.

And nothing that is clearly intended for the sole purpose of bashing is permitted.
 

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It's been a while since I looked it up (3 yrs or so), but isn't the publisher of the forum protected under Federal Communications Decency Act (47 U.S.C. § 230) -- Section 230 forbids the imposition of publisher liability on a service provider for the exercise of its editorial and self-regulatory functions. See also Doe v. America Online, Inc., 783 So. 2d 1010 (Fla. 2001); and Zebran v. America Online, Inc., 958 F.Supp. 1124 (E.D.Va.. 1997)?? I know a lot has changed since we had to deal with it (2007 or 2008) - and I don't want to start researching the issue again... but - maybe one of the mods would like to check it out - or if someone is an attorney on this board?
 
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