Bloodlines and "the split"

I do not know that it really makes sense to go for unity in the breed. I do not think the specialty-showline breeders will ever work toward German show or working line in structure or temperament. Some will get CDs and CDXs on their dogs. Some will doing herding trials with their dogs, most will not go anywhere near Schutzhund.

And really, why should they. If they managed to schutzhund title their dog, the working line people would just acuse them of buying their title, or doing it at a midnight show.

No first place ribbons were awarded at the nationals this year in the puppy classes due to temperament, but I am not hearing anyone applauding that.

The all-breed shows, where German showlines might do ok in, well I do not see them moving toward the specialty dogs at all. I mean, everyone suggests they have such grusome back ends, and spookiness, why would they. They think their dogs are awesome just the way they are. What happens when you mix a roach back GSL to a ski slope AB? One and the other and everything in between, and possibly extremes on both ends. Can you imagine a pronounced break into a ski slope???

So now lets go with the working line dogs, and their flatter top lines, smaller compact size. It is nothing the specialty dogs would ever want to breed with, and they would be hard pressed to manage the added drive.

A working line dog with a V-rating and a manageable/proper amount of energy and drive might be incorporated into the all breed show line dogs, or German show line dogs in America. But those of us with GSLs believe we have the perfect dog just as they are, why would we WANT to incorportate the working lines into our lines?

Working lines people think their dogs are the best/most proper sheps out there. What would combining showline dogs, or specialty dogs in their lines do for them? How would it improve what they are doing?

I think there are good specialty dogs out there that are not extreme and have good temperament.
Of course, I think there are awesome GSL dogs out there with great temperament.
And I think there are great working line dogs out there with good temperament and drives for what they are using them for.

Combing them into one shepherd type would not give us the best of all worlds. I think it is far more likely to give us the worst. And it would, most likely then resemble the pet dogs from BYBs.

Emoore said:

I've been thinking a lot lately about how there are essentially three different sub-breeds of German Shepherds, and then the ugly step-sister fourth breed that none of us really want to talk about but makes up the bulk of GSDs in the States.

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For noobs reading this who don't know what types you're speaking of I'll assume Working, West German Showline, American Showline, and Pet/BYB

So I guess the topic for discussion is this: Do you agree with the 3-way (or 4-way) split? Do you wish there were just one type of GSD? If so, what would it be like? One of the existing ones or a combination?

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No, I do not agree with there being so many different types of GSDs that we have. If structure were all that was different then maybe I would be on the fence but there is a vast difference in each types temperament (for the sake of not typing so much I'm talking not only nerves but energy and drives) and that is what I have a problem with. I do not think that the temperament of what the GSD should be is debateable. I feel the closest to what the correct GSD should be temperament wise is the working lines. I do like variation of the different types of working lines because there are different jobs and you'll need different traits. You will still have at the core what a GSD should be.

I feel like there is another difference between West German SL in Germany and in America. I haven't found many breeders here in the states that are working their SL dogs. I know there is debate about certain German dogs getting their titles fairly as well, but I do see a difference between most not all of the two types. The American SL that I've seen are the furthest from the standard that I can think of. The BYB/Pet lines could at least mix with strong working line history and be close to correct in terms of temperament.

I think the most correct type is the WL. I think the other types that lack in terms of temperament are created to fit what people want because they like the looks of the GSD and the assumption of what a GSD is capable of without care of whether or not the breed fits their lifestyle. So they change the breed to fit with what sells. Not okay.

Also, is it possible for someone to be an ethical, reputable, high-quality breeder of "pet lines" GSDs?

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No. Even if they did all the health testing and got some titles and did everything right (contracts, screening, etc..) They are not breeding dogs that represent what the GSD should be. They are not trying to create those dogs. If the dog has great temperament it should not be bred if its say 130lbs and 30".

The true GSD is likely to be more difficult to find due to the split. I don't really like the split in the breed because it has lead to the loss of what once was fairly consistent in the German Shepherds. Now we have different breeds almost.

I believe the structural extremes that have occurred in the showlines are often driven by the desire to create a more extreme gait. I know that was the reason for the extremity in the ASLs. Fortunately, that extremity is much less seen in the ring now and dogs with incorrectness in the rear are usually penalized. That was not the case in years before so the pendulum has begun to swing. When I am at a show I don't see a bunch of wobble hocks or extreme dogs like I used to. I know moderate is a relative word, they are more moderate in structure. Often, in exhibition of any kind, the extreme is reached before sanity can be sought.

As far as the WGSL, they must also have a reason for the back. I would bet the reasoning is more than aesthetic though like the ASL and the extreme they once exhibited, it may be over done and flawed.

I'll be in the minority and say I like the differences. I think there are still similarities among all the different "types" and it's nice that more people can get involved with this breed and still have the ideal dog. I think it makes it tough on one hand, because people assume they are all the same, buy one, and then find they didn't get the right "type" and it doesn't fit into their lives as well as another type would have (most likely). There are certainly dogs from even the same litters that have completely different temperaments and different drive, but by and large you can expect that a DDR dog is going to be higher drive, higher exercise requirements, and likely a more naturally dominate outgoing type A personality vs an american showline which is probably going to be more nervy, lower drive, and softer temperament overall.

I think each "type" brings something to the table. Do I think they should be mixed to create "one" type. NO. I think it can be beneficial to selectively cross certain types to create a better dog for a specific purpose, but you run a risk of getting the worst of everything. Just because you cross two types doesn't mean you'll get the best of both worlds. As someone pointed out, you could get a roached back, nervy temperment, high drive (yikes, can you say reactive dog in the making) and ski sloped back. No thanks!

There are differences in most breeds. If you really look hard at other breeds, many of them have just as many problems as the shepherd does and there are different "types" as well. Most of them as people who prefer a certain type and argue that that type was what was originally created, but really what does it matter what was originally created when you can make it better through selective breeding? Nothing is perfect when it's originally created. I think it's a bit odd that so many people assume that because one person created a breed, it was perfect from the getgo and we should never change or alter it in any way. Would he want to see the dog he created trotting around a show arena in America with its butt dragging the ground and a nervy temperament? probably not. Would he complain about the german showline? Maybe not.

There will never be any resolution to this kind of debate. Each person will defend their type and say it's the correct type, and the working line folks will always fall back on what the breed originally was when it was created. I personally vote for the working lines, but for the average pet owner they just aren't suitable, and I don't believe there is anything wrong with creating a softer easier dog to handle for people who still wish to have a GSD but can't handle the "real deal." There will always be breeders to continue the working lines, so for those that want them why is there a fuss? There are plently of places to get any type that anyone could possibly want.

Many people here speak like the split in the SL type and WL type has to be because they can't be combined in one. The breed used to be all in one. That was when the German Shepherd was bred to be what it is supposed to be.
The people who want different types are detrimental to the breed in my opinion. I don't believe in different types and don't breed for certain types. I breed German Shepherds, period. The types today are the result of peoples likes, peoples lack of knowledge, and peoples egos. Since that is not going to change....then the types will remain. My dogs can do anything that the standard says they should be able to do. My dogs are not bred to conform to peoples opinion of what the breed should be or else why have a breed description. The dogs before the split were correct, and the resulting tangents that have grown are new creations. When people give credence to venues that make Champions at 11 months of age, or only reward dogs of a distinct color pattern, or base breeding decisions on a dog's grips or long bite....then you see these types proliferate out of ignorance. JMO

I know I am a newbie. I can clearly see the differences in WGSL, ASL, Pet, and WL GSD's. The differences are more than structural-there is a mental variation in the dogs as well. Each of these 4 subsets comes from different priorities on the breeders/enthusiasts end creating specialization in form or another. Each of the subsets has its own strengths and weaknesses. I personally am against any type of breed split because of my own personal predjudices about limiting of genetic material in any closed stud book type registry and creating further genetic bottleneck in a breed already riddled by health issues. HOWEVER I cannnot see any way to bring the breed back to a homogenous blend of every line from where it is because of the specialization each branch has worked towards. Balance is a hard thing to find amongst hardcore specialized enthusiasts no matter what the passion may be.

So does the breed limit its genetic material by excluding each branch in favor of its own preference? Does the breed continue on in the distinctly fragmented manner it currently does with different standards and preferences for each branch? Does the breed as a whole scrap itself and start anew (as a whole or as each subset)? Do they then open the stud book for unregistered dogs to bring in new genetic material? I cannot see a good answer to this quandry or one that woud satisfy a large portion of the enthusiast/breeders. Is the problem a breed registry-or an all breed registry? Is it in the enthusiasts and the breeders themselves? Is it just because dogs as a whole have a totally different function in society, even within their own niche where they are doing the job they were bred for but the job itself has changed leaving the dog/breed obsolete? I see this quandry in all dog breeds, and in many domesticated livestock/beast of burden breeds out there right now as well. Just take a peak into the horse world and the different breeds/types. Think draft horses. Think Carriage horse breeds.

These are such interesting topics to watch and see opinions on. I love it. (Creeping back into obscurity to watch and read. . .)